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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:46 am 
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Now I know this sounds like a dumb question, as obviously they are enslaved and being beaten and r@ped on a fairly regular basis. But the thing is, these things would become normal to them fairly quickly, and in general humans tend to be just as happy regardless of significant negative or positive events, it is known as the hedonistic treadmill http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
Basically it states that if someone makes more money their expectations and desires will rise with their income, making it so they want more. Conversely, if someone abruptly loses all their money, they will experience a short dip in happiness, but in the long run they will be just as happy as they were before.

So the thing is, most of the time the girl is crying/miserable because she is doing something humiliating, but Webster' s defines humiliation as:
Quote:
to reduce to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes

The two most common reasons for their humiliation seem to be being exposed and helpless, now these are things that clearly happen with great frequency in a slave girls life, so she would get used to those feelings pretty quick, so therefore, any further action that made her feel helpless or exposed would not even seem abnormal, much less humiliating or traumatizing. So while a whipping may be physically painful it would stop being a harsh reminder of her fallen position and just start to be a part of life she’d rather avoid.

In other words, having literally cried all the tears they can over a given thing, say, being enslaved, why are most of them still crying so much?

(Now I realize a lot of people like crying girls, but does it have to be everyone )


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:11 am 
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i know this is for erenisch but i don't see the girls crying as much as they use to. Maggie for instance only cries when something new and more humiliating happens to her. BG8 she cries or is humiliated because she is forced to go down on her mother and use a dildo on her and in bg10 she cries because of Paul, otherwise she seems very content and happy with her life. Same can be said of Sherry.

Honestly, I think Erenisch has gotten better with how he/she uses tears in the comics. Having said that I used to think the same as you that their was too much crying in the comics. I think the earlier comics had too much crying but the later ones are fine.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:22 am 
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[quote="theperson"]Now I know this sounds like a dumb question, as obviously they are enslaved and being beaten and r@ped on a fairly regular basis. But the thing is, these things would become normal to them fairly quickly, and in general humans tend to be just as happy regardless of significant negative or positive events, it is known as the hedonistic treadmill http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
Basically it states that if someone makes more money their expectations and desires will rise with their income, making it so they want more. Conversely, if someone abruptly loses all their money, they will experience a short dip in happiness, but in the long run they will be just as happy as they were before.

So the thing is, most of the time the girl is crying/miserable because she is doing something humiliating, but Webster' s defines humiliation as:


I think it is to keep the pleasure of us, the readers. I cannot imagine anything more boring than 100% happy slavegirls, raised as that and complying with any demand. Not feeling humiliated nor dehumanized, but feeling fine with their life.

The most erotic moment IMHO is the moment of capture and conversion. When the former proud, free woman becomes a controlled chattel. When she realizes her lost of status and she suffer indignities unknown to her at the hands of former equals.

If this emotional status is not kept along the story, the erotic drive of it comes down, that could be a reason why they remain unhappy, miserable and thus lovable.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:29 am 
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The Artist
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Yes, the girls in my comics are in tears often. I heard complaints about it before.

One of the major reasons I started to draw these comics is that I was not satisfied with the porn available to me. Contemporary porn stars are too "shameless" for my taste. They can do the nastiest things with a brazen smile on their faces, and that is huge turn off for me. My girls are capable of feeling shame. That's why my girls react to humiliation that way, not with complete apathy or inexplicable joy. It is true that I diversified my facial expressions in my more recent comics, but tears are still the most effective visual expression of shame and pain.

Having said that, I think the perception that my girls weep all the time is a little bit exaggerated. Sexual abuse and humiliation lose their effect through iteration, yes. But they would still make little girls cry. Especially when they involve pain. You don't build immunity to whips or electro-shocks. They always make your eyes water.

On the hedonic readjusment issue, I guess I have some examples of that in my stories. Maggie and and Sherry illustrate the concept well. They are more or less happy now, even though they are sex slaves. You don't see them cry as much as the newbies. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:44 am 
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To go against the Hedonic Treadmill theory in this case, for most of the women involved, this isn't exactly a major event, or one in particular. It's more that the background radiation of fearing assault, dealing with wide varieties of harassment, disrespect, and objectification has increased dramatically for some of the older women, and just remained at an alarmingly high level for others. in the treadmill theory, a single assault, or a single major incident is referenced. It doesn't apply when whippings, beatings, and other horrible shit are on a daily basis.
Here, the closest thing I could think of as a professional doctor of fake doctorology is the theory of microagressions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression
Where the basic premise is that one or a few small incidents will piss you off for a few seconds (this can happen to anyone, but as of right now the reliable ways to study it are in discrimination based on race/gender/sexuality/gender-identity/religion, the big ones) and then you return to almost normal. Many many microagressions will metaphorically weigh you down and beat you down.

And the way people react to them is still being looked at, meaning some can defend themselves by twisting it into compliments, some seem to shut everything off, and some kinda get an emotional hair trigger. But those are the ones I know, and as of now any extreme incidents aren't well studied from what I've seen.

Erenisch wrote:
Having said that, I think the perception that my girls weep all the time is a little bit exaggerated. Sexual abuse and humiliation lose their effect through iteration, yes. But they would still make little girls cry. Especially when they involve pain. You don't build immunity to whips or electro-shocks. They always make your eyes water.


I agree here to an extent. This is my experience, and mileage varies and thankfully i've never been in a situation as dangerous as E's comic and all, but you would need a lot of frickin abuse and humiliation for it to lose effect. It still hurts in that moment and for a long while after.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:57 pm 
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You made me go back and read BG10 again. It seems Maggie does not cry at all when she is with Peter. She cries when Paul starts pinching her nipples. When she is with Peter again, this time she cries from happiness.

Sherry's eyes water when Paul wakes her up with an anal assault, but after that no tears.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:32 pm 
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Bangerman wrote:
You made me go back and read BG10 again. It seems Maggie does not cry at all when she is with Peter. She cries when Paul starts pinching her nipples. When she is with Peter again, this time she cries from happiness.

Sherry's eyes water when Paul wakes her up with an anal assault, but after that no tears.

To this I will add Maggie does not cry at all in BG9, except for the flashback scenes where she goes back to her E-day.

@theperson, I suggest you read the dialogue between Paul and Sherry in BG9 page 18. They talk about this issue.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:15 pm 
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Being something of a dacryphile, I rather like all the crying, especially since it's usually just a few leaking tears as opposed to full-fledge bawling.

And though I agree people "adjust" or become numb to what's normal, even if it's dreadful, that doesn't mean their misery goes away. It lies just beneath the surface, waiting for some new terrible thing to bring it all welling up.

E.'s characters have a wide range of emotions, but in their world, most of those emotions are negative, or at least tinged with negativity and the fear of what may follow.

Frankly, I'm surprised they don't cry more.

In situations of consensual BDSM, naturally, those involved tend to look happy, and in that context I think their enjoyment is just fine (happens all the time in my pictures), but in the E-verse, what joy their is for women is always fleeting and even a seemingly good moment could turn bad without warning.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:16 pm 
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Erenisch wrote:
Especially when they involve pain. You don't build immunity to whips or electro-shocks. They always make your eyes water.



Just to drop a bit of Real life in here:

You do develop an immunity to constant physical pain. I know from personal experience that Your body just stops sending the signals. From the reports I've read of people being almost beaten to death on a regular basis they can come to crave the pain or learn to ignore it. The best torture is always psychological or uses mental tricks to aid them.

Most of the efficient 'long term' torture is usually a take on leaving the body in an uncomfortable position for hours/days. Eventually the body will still go numb and that is why kicking/swinging is utilised to move the persons position. Changing a persons position/routine forces the body to send new signals that are felt.

It is general knowledge for me that you have to give somebody something so that they can lose it. Hence most prisoners have the ability to earn 'privileges'. Maggie & Sherry along with the rest of the Stevenson Slaves have something in that they are not being whipped to death and have a degree of choice in doing chores etc. They are also in a group dynamic and hence humiliation is still possible .

Just my two cents about a story!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:05 pm 
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Correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't think a person can be beaten to death regular basis. Once usually does the trick.

Not to be sarcastic, just though it was kind of funny. As a chronic pain sufferer myself I agree the brain does adjust. I'm not sure it does so completely, as I still feel it, but it's muted over time. I think the brain has the ability to rewire itself internally so it can adjust to sensations that persist by processing them differently.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:16 pm 
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ernestgreene wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't think a person can be beaten to death regular basis. Once usually does the trick.

Not to be sarcastic, just though it was kind of funny. As a chronic pain sufferer myself I agree the brain does adjust. I'm not sure it does so completely, as I still feel it, but it's muted over time. I think the brain has the ability to rewire itself internally so it can adjust to sensations that persist by processing them differently.


m113 wrote:
From the reports I've read of people being almost beaten to death on a regular basis they can come to crave the pain or learn to ignore it.


Almost beaten to death.

I constantly amazed at what the human body can endure.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:35 am 
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The thing here is, that I forgot to mention at the beginning is that I'm not talking about Maggie or Sherry, they follow a pretty realistic path as far as this question goes.

But take for example, the girls in the back of the van in "the bottom" why the heck are they crying? They just got bought, its like the best possible thing that could happen to them in their circumstances. They're not crying from pain, they've endured bindings far more uncomfortable, and I really can't see how that is more humiliating than being literal human garbage. There are other examples of this, where girls cry about things that according to what we know, happen on a fairly regular basis. Also, I'll note, no matter how humiliated you are, you are only physically capable of crying for a rather limited time, so a lot of girls that are on display in various places (like the flavored girls in BG3 or 4) really would not be crying if they were there for any period of time. While it has been noted that they cry when humiliated, some of the things they cry about are really not more humiliating than things they do on a regular basis. Honestly, once you crawl around the school naked, on all fours, and on a leash, I really don't think anything could get significantly more humiliating. Another thing about humiliation is that it requires that the act be abnormal; now I realize the story would be boring if the girls simply accepted everything cheerfully, but honestly, by the time we get to say, BG9, a newly enslaved girl is not going to be that embarrassed about sucking a guys dick in the school yard, because honestly it happens every day, all the time. While there would be some initial humiliation of suddenly finding herself in those other girls metaphorical shoes, it would wear off pretty quick, because dick sucking is a normal and frequent part of a slave's life. And once you've gotten used to kneeling naked in the schoolyard, sucking the dick of some random stranger your master lent you to, I really can't think of anything embarrassing enough to prompt tears.

Another thing that's been said is that tears are automatically shed as a result of pain, now this is true, but it is not usually the case, or at least the sole cause of the tears. I have no problem with tears of pain, see one of my favorite scenes in BG9, when Peter whips Maggie, what I have a problem with is them treating it as an intense psycho/emotional event, when in reality it's totally normal.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:25 am 
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I see your point clearly and I agree with you of course. Gun to my head, I'd simply say that I draw the girls like that because this is the way I like it. I'm a dacryphiliac among other things (and many of my male characters are too), I find sweat and tears sexy. The main theme of my comics is emotional abuse, I use bondage and physical torture as a means to it.

If it is closure you want, I can add thought bubbles to every crying girl in my comics. :) For example, the flavored girl you mentioned from BG5 (who actually is not crying in that scene) could have been thinking about the fate of her little sisters at that moment. It is so easy to rationalize and post-rationalize everything in my comics with a short piece of dialogue, I just never have enough space on the page.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:01 pm 
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Erenisch wrote:
It is so easy to rationalize and post-rationalize everything in my comics with a short piece of dialogue, I just never have enough space on the page.


Good to hear you don't intend to pave your comics with bubbles.

First (most important):
The great thing about comic art is that you add all the dialogs you think they might happen in your mind.
It's a great synergy of books and movies.
I love that and they acompany me most of my live.

Second (slightly important):
It allready drives me cracy forced to delete some of those bubbles to use the images in my projects.
Think about the 8 of Hearts (Debbies Butt).

So please keep my imagination alive

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:48 am 
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Erenisch wrote:
If it is closure you want, I can add thought bubbles to every crying girl in my comics. :) For example, the flavored girl you mentioned from BG5 (who actually is not crying in that scene) could have been thinking about the fate of her little sisters at that moment. It is so easy to rationalize and post-rationalize everything in my comics with a short piece of dialogue, I just never have enough space on the page.


2 Things, first of all, obviously you are correct about the flavored girl, I was mistaken.

Secondly, honestly those thought bubbles change everything and I don't think there's enough of them, there are more in the later comics but in the early ones they either say it or say nothing, and I think that really detracts from the story. I honestly am more into the psychological/emotional aspect of the whole "slave world" than I am the physical. When I see Maggie sucking Peter's dick, that doesn't really do anything for me, it's when I take it in the larger context that this was once a free, virginal schoolgirl, with hopes and dreams of her own, who, having been enslaved and emotionally, physically, and psychologically tortured beyond her breaking point, now enjoys the activity, that I find it erotic. An example of thought bubbles changing how you look at a scene is page 18 of BG1, where Maggie is sucking Peter's dick for the first/second-ish time, if she was just crying it would be a total turn off for me, but because that thought bubble is there, telling why she's crying. Now you might say it's easy to come up with reasons, and this one's easy, but the thought bubbles are really helpful. And also, it's one thing to break a girls body and will, (Sherry ~BG8) it is another to break her mind and emotions (Maggie and Sherry >BG10) and the thought bubbles are an indicator of such, such as when Maggie literally thinks what Peter orders her to, we see her think "I worship my master's cock". Or when Heather is rewarded with animal cum, we don't only see her outwardly happy (easily faked, not erotic) we also see that she actually considers this a reward through her thought bubble (totally hot).


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:08 am 
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That is my default modus operandi of course. When I'm drawing, I play the movie in my head and hear the dialogue and thoughts. However, when it is lettering time, some of the dialogue don't fit the page and are reluctantly dropped. That is why some of the thoughtful looking characters are silent in the final version.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:37 pm 
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Erenisch wrote:
That is my default modus operandi of course. When I'm drawing, I play the movie in my head and hear the dialogue and thoughts. However, when it is lettering time, some of the dialogue don't fit the page and are reluctantly dropped. That is why some of the thoughtful looking characters are silent in the final version.


I figured it was something like that, stupid reality getting in the way


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:27 pm 
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Yeah, reality is stupid. And I am glad this question was answered, becuase I have been wondering about this for the past five or so years, as I myself get turned off a bit by tears. As I said before, I am more into lighter side of BDSM. Unfortunately, most comics(Japanese or Western) are like this. I can only name like three that have a good ending and/or is consensual. I myself am more turned of by the obedience and adoration to their Masters by the pets/slaves not by how much pain and suffering they are in. Most light bdsm s/m that you will find is more often then not adult RPs or amateur fiction(which I do both). Moral of the story, if you have to pay and/or it is a comic, the girl in the story most likely will not have a happy ending


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:15 pm 
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I'm not sure I accept the assumption that all commercially distributed BDSM art is based on n0n-cons3nsu@l ordeals in which the heroine is doomed to a bad fate (Sade kind of started that trend with Justine and I don't deny there's plenty of material built on that model out there).

Particularly in Europe, you'll find softer kink material, generally done in a more realistic setting, than the over-the-top fantasies characteristic of the kind of art you don't like.

There's room for both. I've seen some very nice art done in what I would call a more romantic style, but that doesn't indict other kinds of fantasies presented in a fictional manner. Many of us enjoy fictional portrayals of things they would never want to see in real life.

E.'s work is both hot porn and subtle poetical and social commentary. It's not meant to be proscriptive. If anything, it's cautionary. As in life, happy endings are not guaranteed art of any kind has no mandate to portray what the artist sees in a more flattering light.

As novelist Vladimir Bartol noted: "
By definition, E.'s work takes place in a dystopian alternate universe. That's a place to visit and I don't think you'd find many here would care to live in that place.

But as tourists, we can enjoy sightseeing in hell with no repercussions to any living person. Fiction has given us this opportunity since the time of the great Greek dramatists (not a lot of happy endings with those guys either) and continues to do so across the spectrum of art and literature. Most operas don't have happy endings either, but they deal with recognizable human emotions in the face of tragic circumstances.

To me, the ability to do exactly that sets E.'s work apart from most in the BDSM comic genre. The whole E-verse fantasy is very broad, but within it we find plenty of emotional content, most especially experienced from the point of view of those who are subjugated and silenced in the world. Of all the many BDSM comics I read (as I do not only for pleasure but also because it goes with my job), E.'s consistently do a better job of taking us inside people's minds and motives than anyone else. It's clear where E.'s sympathies lie and as dystopian visions often are at heart, E.'s is profoundly humanistic.

The world of the imagination has no borders and needs none. As novelist Anatol Barthol observed: ""Nothing is an absolute reality, all is permitted" in a fictional world.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:52 am 
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sameo15 wrote:
Yeah, reality is stupid. And I am glad this question was answered, becuase I have been wondering about this for the past five or so years, as I myself get turned off a bit by tears. As I said before, I am more into lighter side of BDSM. Unfortunately, most comics(Japanese or Western) are like this. I can only name like three that have a good ending and/or is consensual. I myself am more turned of by the obedience and adoration to their Masters by the pets/slaves not by how much pain and suffering they are in. Most light bdsm s/m that you will find is more often then not adult RPs or amateur fiction(which I do both). Moral of the story, if you have to pay and/or it is a comic, the girl in the story most likely will not have a happy ending


Wow, you and I agree completely on E's works and BDSM in general. That's why I like the E-verse, its more than just sex and whippings


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