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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:22 pm 
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I agree with all of this (perhaps we do read the same blogs!), especially on immigration but I'd also add that there is an irony in the fact that some of the religious orders who were involved in the actual enslavement of Irish women in penal institutions such as the Magdalene Laundries are prominently associated with the anti-trafficking organisation Ruhama and this is not as counter-intuitive as it seems: Both the penal institutions run by those nuns and the anti-trafficking associations have at heart the same mission of "rescuing" (whether they want rescuing or not) what they see as "fallen" women.


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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:43 pm 
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I'd heard about that and I agree. Many "anti-trafficking" activists are more interested in rescuing women's souls than their bodies, whether or not the women in question care to have either rescued, especially by those with that agenda. Alas, extremes tend to come full-circle. To me there's not a dime's worth of difference between the Magdalene sisters and C.A.T. In fact, these groups often set aside basic philosophical differences and join forces in the persecution of sexually active women. Their rationalizations may differ, but their intent is the same. I've no use for either, and you'd look long to find anyone more militantly opposed to involuntary servitude of any kind than I am. The key word here is involuntary. I believe there is such a thing as informed consent, that it exists in sex work at least as much as it exists in any other thing people might do for a living and that those who reject that idea share something ugly in common with those who inflict n0n-cons3nsu@l exploitation on others.


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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:47 am 
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slutmaster3 wrote:
I have spent some time or so watch the youtube vids of the late Chris Hutchins and Richard Dawrkins. if you go back to the bible in biblical times it was really like being in the e-verse. It was ok to sell your daughter as a sex slave you could enslave your neighbors, so this was a real reality. so as far a religion goes it would be easy to go back



This isn't entirly accuate. If used for sex then the girl basically became a wife and women did have some rights back then.

If not used for sex i.e males then they would be freed at least every 7 years. The law was designed to regulate the trade kind of like how we now have employment law. You also couldn't main or kill your slave. Its easlier if you just replace the term slave with worker or employee.

Unfortunatly many think slave as in do as I tell you or die and not as in the other rendering of 'subject' as in follow the law and you'll be rewarded and if I mistreat you then I must pay the price. For the time period it was very advanced. every sabbath day off, Public holidays off and the legal requirment to be provided food, shelter, medical care etc..

Of course like people today just because the law said x doesn't mean people followed it as intended.

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:59 am 
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There was still a significant lack of choice or consent in the matter, which is the larger concern

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:47 am 
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If I were a woman I wouldn't want to live in any other time period. History was hell for women everywhere... Today we still don't have full equality and freedom for both genders but it is the best we ever had.

That said, I don't think biblical times were the best time to live for anybody, men or women.


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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:09 am 
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Bangerman wrote:
If I were a woman I wouldn't want to live in any other time period. History was hell for women everywhere... Today we still don't have full equality and freedom for both genders but it is the best we ever had.

That said, I don't think biblical times were the best time to live for anybody, men or women.


As a matter of purely historical argument, I would disagree with your contention. I don't deny that there was sexism and, occasionally enormous, levels of gender disparity but there is a difference between social mores and actual practical reality.

There have been incredibly ;misogynistic cultures. "Democratic" Classical Athens ( actually all Greece except Sparta) is perhaps the worst. Women existed only as a chattel of their kyrios or Lord/Master. They were the easiest way of transferring property and polite society proscribed that they should never leave their segreageted quarters save to be married Perhaps this is the closest history has got to the CFSL that we all enjoy reading about? The truth of it though, is that most men could not afford to NOTt have their wives and daughters go out and about helping with the family business, doing the laundry or shopping. Even among those wealthy enough to live by the mores there are lots of examples of women who do very well for themselves. Practical necessity, intelligence and drive will always transcend the notional demands of society.

The Romans had a form of marriage called "confarraetio" where the wife became her husband's legal property lock, stock and barrel. It seems to have been a rare event even among the Patrician familes who could use it. Most marriages were of a far looser type more of a buisness arrangement called "farraetion" Mediaeval history is filled with hints of womenwho despite being chattel under law did very well for themselves and prospered independently of their lord and master. Eleanor of Aquitaine who successfully ruled a province of France in her own right whilst still in her teens is an extreme example.

On the whole where the lives of women have been a whole pile of crap it is a guarantee that the lives of their men have been a whole pile of crap too. A point that extends far beyond the bivlical example you cite.

The other issue here though is religon, as that has been a major force is female suppression across the faith divide. The issues with the Catholic Church are well known but Judaism which brings us the proscriptions of Leviticus and objectification of the Tenth Commandmant was also the religon that had Female Judges such as Deborah before choosing to forget about that part of it's history and returning to Patriarchy. Islam which (loosely) inspired Hollywood to create the Harem girl fetish was created by Mohammed who was married to an independently wealthy woman and caravan owner. A far cry from the much latter Wahabbi take on gender relations


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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:27 pm 
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Seriously, though, I really do think the argument over when women had it best depends greatly on your definition of "best." Lucy, the oldest intact human fossil, died by blunt force trauma to the head. Obviously, violence against women is not new.

All three Abrahamic religions, while reserving some protections to women, generally treated them as property with few rights by law, including the right to inherit property or divorce a spouse. Pagan cultures were certainly no more enlightened in this respect. The Paterfamilias of a Roman household could kill his wife, children or slaves with impunity. The much-praised Athenian democracy did recognize women as citizens, barring them from directly participating in the political process (though as they have throughout history women often influenced politics indirectly through husbands or lovers).

However, it's also true that ancient societies weren't all that well organized and there are plenty of exceptions. Egypt even had a female pharaoh, Hatshupset (though she did wear a false beard when presiding at court). The Bibles - not my favorite book by any means - for all its terrible repression of women recognizes many women of power and influence. I suspect this has more to do with class privilege than gender. If you happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right status, opportunities could present themselves.

And the freedoms of modern society have also been unevenly divided and have not in all cases improved conditions for women. Is a woman working in a Third-World garment sweatshop much better off now than she would have been a thousand years ago? She has no more real freedom and is put at greater physical risks in practical terms. I tend to lean toward economic rather than political metrics when assessing the situation of anyone at any time regardless of gender and in many ways it seems to me that industrial capitalism has merely created a new class of wage slaves among women who work harder, earn less and are more unlikely to advance to positions of greater prosperity and influence than men. One of the reasons I think many modern societies have embraced some degree of female autonomy is because the illusion of it serves the purposes of the ruling class by creating a second tier of workers and consumers. I'm not convinced that's a great improvement.

But I would still maintain that in terms of physical security, social and economic recognition and participation in the governing process, women are probably better off in the modern world than they have been at any other time in recorded history. I'm quite certain if I had to choose when to live as a woman, depending on where I was geographically, I'd probably choose now over any earlier time. That still sets the bar pretty low, but it was generally far lower in earlier times.

It's easy to point to ways in which the modern world mistreats women, but the very fact that tens of millions of women and men care enough to point out those ways and denounce them as wrong and unjust has to be considered social progress. We're a long way from gender-neutral utopia, but we're about half-way out of the kind of dystopia that E. so aptly transposes into a contemporary setting.


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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:15 pm 
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ernestgreene wrote:
Seriously, though, I really do think the argument over when women had it best depends greatly on your definition of "best." Lucy, the oldest intact human fossil, died by blunt force trauma to the head. Obviously, violence against women is not new.

All three Abrahamic religions, while reserving some protections to women, generally treated them as property with few rights by law, including the right to inherit property or divorce a spouse. Pagan cultures were certainly no more enlightened in this respect. The Paterfamilias of a Roman household could kill his wife, children or slaves with impunity. The much-praised Athenian democracy did recognize women as citizens, barring them from directly participating in the political process (though as they have throughout history women often influenced politics indirectly through husbands or lovers).

However, it's also true that ancient societies weren't all that well organized and there are plenty of exceptions. Egypt even had a female pharaoh, Hatshupset (though she did wear a false beard when presiding at court). The Bibles - not my favorite book by any means - for all its terrible repression of women recognizes many women of power and influence. I suspect this has more to do with class privilege than gender. If you happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right status, opportunities could present themselves.

And the freedoms of modern society have also been unevenly divided and have not in all cases improved conditions for women. Is a woman working in a Third-World garment sweatshop much better off now than she would have been a thousand years ago? She has no more real freedom and is put at greater physical risks in practical terms. I tend to lean toward economic rather than political metrics when assessing the situation of anyone at any time regardless of gender and in many ways it seems to me that industrial capitalism has merely created a new class of wage slaves among women who work harder, earn less and are more unlikely to advance to positions of greater prosperity and influence than men. One of the reasons I think many modern societies have embraced some degree of female autonomy is because the illusion of it serves the purposes of the ruling class by creating a second tier of workers and consumers. I'm not convinced that's a great improvement.

But I would still maintain that in terms of physical security, social and economic recognition and participation in the governing process, women are probably better off in the modern world than they have been at any other time in recorded history. I'm quite certain if I had to choose when to live as a woman, depending on where I was geographically, I'd probably choose now over any earlier time. That still sets the bar pretty low, but it was generally far lower in earlier times.

It's easy to point to ways in which the modern world mistreats women, but the very fact that tens of millions of women and men care enough to point out those ways and denounce them as wrong and unjust has to be considered social progress. We're a long way from gender-neutral utopia, but we're about half-way out of the kind of dystopia that E. so aptly transposes into a contemporary setting.


Uhhh..... It looks like I'm not the only Radical Leftist belonging to this community. I'm going to be honest & admit that I in no way saw that coming. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:29 pm 
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Oh you'd be slightly surprised Blue Hat. And Mr. Greene is pretty darn wise

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:24 am 
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Blue Hat Man wrote:
It looks like I'm not the only Radical Leftist belonging to this community.

I guess the term Radical Leftist has different connotations depending on your surroundings. I've taken part in several fruitful and thought provoking discussions with Mr Greene, but I can't say that he ever come across as a radical leftist to me. But then, I've lived all my life in various parts of Europe.

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:28 pm 
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Thon wrote:
Blue Hat Man wrote:
It looks like I'm not the only Radical Leftist belonging to this community.

I guess the term Radical Leftist has different connotations depending on your surroundings. I've taken part in several fruitful and thought provoking discussions with Mr Greene, but I can't say that he ever come across as a radical leftist to me. But then, I've lived all my life in various parts of Europe.

Assuming American bias, it seems that hard left here has been left of center in a lot of European countries, so I have no clue.

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:53 pm 
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I don't really want to go into a political discussion here, but to set the scale, let's put it like this; Obama's politics would be center-rightish in most western european countries. Most sane Rep pres kandidates would be labeled rightwing nut jobs. The current rep nominee... :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:19 am 
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OK clearly I probably should've remembered to defined by term. I used the Radical Left is a umbrella for those who seek demise of capitalism. Important to note that the various sub groups in Radical Left i'll either have different ideas on what system should replace capitalism and also did from each other on methodological grounds. The majority of these different factions do you have communism as a ultimate end goal or has an ideal to get as close as possible to.

I hope that I cleared up some to confusion for you comrades. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:56 am 
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:lol: Well, it's all about the classic problem of labeling people and ideas. And the right-left scale is far to simplified to hold all the various standpoints on economic, religious, individual liberalism, equality issues, feminism, racism, health care, defense, trade, environmental, education, etc etc, around the world.

But then again, to keep the discussions going we need labels. We can't insert a 2000 word explanation of something or someone in every sentence. Life. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:39 am 
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Thon wrote:
:lol: Well, it's all about the classic problem of labeling people and ideas. And the right-left scale is far to simplified to hold all the various standpoints on economic, religious, individual liberalism, equality issues, feminism, racism, health care, defense, trade, environmental, education, etc etc, around the world.

But then again, to keep the discussions going we need labels. We can't insert a 2000 word explanation of something or someone in every sentence. Life. :roll:


Yeah I totally know what you're talking about. Has someone who is constantly scrutinizing, reevaluating and adjusting my ideas and believes I've ended up getting myself into the weird position that there really isn't a label for my particular set of ideas. What I get when I try to Frankenstein a The evil for myself the most coherent thing I get is Socialisc-Singularitarian and I'm not sure if to slap a Marxist on there or not. Recently I've concluded that while Marx did correctly identified that he would nature is malleable & I agree conclusion in which way we should modify it........... But I think he overestimated the degree to which the factors mention within Marxist theory ( not specifying for time ). Addition to medically underestimated how deep the wired many of of are mental processes truely are, not to say they can't be modified but the message he suggested would not be sufficient.

So I am of the opinion that we should increase Transhumanism in order to make the modifications to human "nature" which the majority of the Marx & Radical Left has it been defined as positive . In fact I would see this has humanity elevating itself to humanity 2.0 / tramshumanity. Now the reason that I used The term Singularitarian instead of Transhumsnist is I am also option that humanity as it exist at present is in capable of surmounting the problems facing it and therefore the elevation of a species is in the survival & also don't think we should ever stop improving upon the our mental and physical capacities.

Sorry if that was a bit long. I've only had this particular opinion for around a week now, so I haven't had much practice explaining it.

Set I would love any feedback or thoughts and if you have on it. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:21 am 
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I fear I will disappoint you. Standing beside you, I'm more of a - ah fuck it, let's fuck and eat - kind of guy. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:48 am 
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poze wrote:
Hey E i realy love you're comics and i wanted to ask you do you wish that live was like this,i mean like in you're comics? (i do :twisted: )


Well if you have been hang around these forums sort of regularly have picked up on that I'm the community's resident Marxist and Communist.

Now you don't doubt history is Commies and fascists are mortal enemies.

So considering how the government withthinn EU A fascist so that wouldn't be my most rude

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 Post subject: Re: Real?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:47 am 
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There is one main conclusion from that discussion: such world should stay only in a dystopia becasue when the forcement, spanking, degradation, etc. are the matter of fantasies, no one real person pains.

Yes, young women in these comics are loveable and we could feel sorry for them, the men - especially old or misshapen ones are awful. But the old or mature women who cooperate with them - they are repulsive! Nevertheless, that scheme is logical in the dystopia! :-)


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