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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:52 am 
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ernestgreene wrote:
Fortunately, we won't be seeing much of J.J. in the future. Lucasfilm listened to their audience, wrote him a tiny part in the next picture and have basically disappeared him from future projects.

That's a relief.


Whilst I agree with the sentiment entirely, it is actually even better than that- Lucas gave him the casting vote which caused the creation of the clone army, the extension of Palpatine's rule, the, rise of the Empire and the eventual Death of Alderaan not to mention an all out civil war. If we are going to hate Jar Jar at least we were given strong reason to by the events of Ep II


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:37 am 
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But you are forgetting that they gave him more lines in the clone wars series. They did not learn their lesson.

(hey are we all star wars geeks here?)


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:13 am 
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MrGoodPecker wrote:
(hey are we all star wars geeks here?)

Apparently.

By the way, I think mentioning Jar-jar is the Star Wars geekdom version of Godwin's Law. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:33 am 
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ernestgreene wrote:
Anna is the lead character in Karma. If she were a secondary character who distracted attention from protagonist, you might have a point.

But in this case, you don't.


And if that was what you were talking about, you might have a point.

But this is what you said:

ernestgreene wrote:
A good indicator of a well-designed character. Love her or hate her, Anna gets everyone's attention.


Which is just fantastically bad observation of how stories work.

I gave two examples of terrible characters who fit your terms exactly. Can you give some examples of good characters who do?


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:24 pm 
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MrGoodPecker wrote:
But you are forgetting that they gave him more lines in the clone wars series. They did not learn their lesson.

(hey are we all star wars geeks here?)



There's a reason everyone liked when Lucas said he was no longer in charge of that franchise.
(The Tartakofsky Clone Wars series was better)

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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Erenisch wrote:
I think mentioning Jar-jar is the Star Wars geekdom version of Godwin's Law. :D


I want to be clear that I'm not comparing Anna to Jar-Jar. I brought up the Binks to refute a statement. As Godwin's Law discussions go, this would be a case of Person A saying, "Vegetarians make the best leaders," and Person B replying, "Dude, Hitler was a vegetarian."

Storytelling-wise, there are some occasions where Mr. Greene's principle holds up. In Jacobean theatre, there was often the role of the intriguer, like Jonson's Brainworm, a flamboyant character who drives multiple plots forward by engaging in schemes that set things in motion; some modern sitcoms still follow this model. And there are a number of histories where larger-than-life figures like Huey Long or Winston Churchill come along, whose actual antics make the history books breathe.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Erenisch wrote:
[ By the way, I think mentioning Jar-jar is the Star Wars geekdom version of Godwin's Law. :D


At least it took a couple of pages to reach that level :D


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Why would anyone hate Anna? Because she's bad? Just imagine yourself being a woman in Erenisch world. You have two lines of behavior: obey or fight. Obeying is safer, but humiliating. Fighting - cool but dangerous. Anna picked the second, just like i would (on some reason i always imagine myself on different character's places) so i respect her.

One more thing i like about her is her woman strength. She's not trying to behave like a man, she uses what nature gave her, her beauty, for example. Such girls are brilliant, if you can handle them, of course. :anna:


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Well, I like the fact that Anna is a controversial character, and she sparks great discussions, and all that jazz... And I genuinely do enjoy people "not liking" my characters. Any reaction is better than apathy. I often prefer to lurk and not talk when such discussions rage on. But if people go beyond " not liking" my characters and start "not liking" my storytelling, I will step in to defend myself. I won't take that lying down. 8-)

First of all, I'm fully aware that what I do is simply porn with a little twist, nothing bigger, and I do not take myself too seriously. But a story is still a product of my intellectual capacity (no matter how little of it was used in the production process), so I do take offense when it is called terrible.

Let me assure you, I do not simply put sex scenes in sequence when I write a story. I put a lot of thought in them. There are no fillers in my stories, I often have to cut stuff out to make space. Everything shown and said has purpose.

Anna is my attempt to create an anti-hero (Okay, I realize how silly that statement sounds as all my protagonists are male chauvinistic assholes with no morals). I wanted her to represent all the "unwanted" characteristics a female stereotype should not have in this topsy-turvy world. I actively tried to break the patterns of predictable female behavior in every comic she was in. She is defiance personified, takes no bullshit, never backs down in a fully hostile environment... She is a Machiavellian survivor. Like many of my characters, she started as a simple plot device, but found life with every comic took part in. I came to like her because of her unpredictability and the creative opportunities she presents.

She was also instrumental in introducing my new "big bad" Zalupatsin, who will be in some of my future projects which will deal with more "global" issues. I wanted to emphasize the fact that he is a real bad-ass, as opposed to the rest of the male characters we have met so far. It is very difficult to do that where all your male characters are violent dicks. Thanks to the special personality of Anna, only Anna, the comparison can be made effectively.
(Compulsory Star Wars example: Remember the opening scene of A New Hope, where Lea's consular ship was chased by an Imperial cruiser? Lea's corvette was big, but it 's sole purpose was to help us grasp the immense size of the cruiser chasing it. That was the effect I was going for when I sent Zalupatsin after Anna.)


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:27 pm 
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Erenisch wrote:
Well, I like the fact that Anna is a controversial character, and she sparks great discussions, and all that jazz... And I genuinely do enjoy people "not liking" my characters. Any reaction is better than apathy. I often prefer to lurk and not talk when such discussions rage on. But if people go beyond " not liking" my characters and start "not liking" my storytelling, I will step in to defend myself. I won't take that lying down. 8-)

First of all, I'm fully aware that what I do is simply porn with a little twist, nothing bigger, and I do not take myself too seriously. But a story is still a product of my intellectual capacity (no matter how little of it was used in the production process), so I do take offense when it is called terrible.

Let me assure you, I do not simply put sex scenes in sequence when I write a story. I put a lot of thought in them. There are no fillers in my stories, I often have to cut stuff out to make space. Everything shown and said has purpose.

Anna is my attempt to create an anti-hero (Okay, I realize how silly that statement sounds as all my protagonists are male chauvinistic assholes with no morals). I wanted her to represent all the "unwanted" characteristics a female stereotype should not have in this topsy-turvy world. I actively tried to break the patterns of predictable female behavior in every comic she was in. She is defiance personified, takes no bullshit, never backs down in a fully hostile environment... She is a Machiavellian survivor. Like many of my characters, she started as a simple plot device, but found life with every comic took part in. I came to like her because of her unpredictability and the creative opportunities she presents.

She was also instrumental in introducing my new "big bad" Zalupatsin, who will be in some of my future projects which will deal with more "global" issues. I wanted to emphasize the fact that he is a real bad-ass, as opposed to the rest of the male characters we have met so far. It is very difficult to do that where all your male characters are violent dicks. Thanks to the special personality of Anna, only Anna, the comparison can be made effectively.
(Compulsory Star Wars example: Remember the opening scene of A New Hope, where Lea's consular ship was chased by an Imperial cruiser? Lea's corvette was big, but it 's sole purpose was to help us grasp the immense size of the cruiser chasing it. That was the effect I was going for when I sent Zalupatsin after Anna.)


Aha! At last we get a peek behind the creative curtain! Wonderful. First of all, I hope you were not referring to me when you said some one called your story telling "terrible." I was not a fan of Karma or the end of BG 9, but I still think your stories are far and away the best written porn on the market. In a very real way I have become spoiled by you. The quality of your work is high, so I have come to expect ever higher and higher quality. :-)

I think Anna originallyworked well as an unpredictable rule breaking character. She added depth to BG 5, 6, and 7 and her cameo in BG 8 worked well also. Back then she was just a high school girl breaking the rules. It was in BG 9 that things started to change. When she killed steve, cut off his balls and burned the house to the ground -I admit that was a hell of a moment, but at what what cost? For me that shifted the tone of the whole series. That was when I started to really dislike the direction Anna was going in.

Simply put, I see these stories as male empowerment fantasies. I want the men to win (you are the author of course, lol, I am merely a humble fan, my glory days when I got to be your dofantasy editor on "the Hotel" are long over, and now I am but a humble fan. I do understand that.) Nonetheless, personally, I want the male characters to win in the long run.

So when Anna was humiliating Steve or Peter in the short term, thats OK. She is just an interesting challenge. Challenges for the male characters to overcome are good, they make the story more interesting. But when she utterly destroys Steve, that was the point I stopped being turned on by her stories. I don't want the male characters to be made to seem pathetic, and I certainly don't want them to die. In my mind, those guys are me!

That kind of has me worried about this new direction with Zalapustin. If he is a "real" bad ass strong guy, that implies all the other guys are just weak pussies. I didn't enjoy seeing Steve get torn down and I don't particularly like the idea that other men we have come to know and identify with will now only be "2nd tier" masters, who aren't as tough and manly as Zalapustin apparently is.

Of course the decision is yours, much as I miss editing, I have no say in where the story goes. Regardless, thanks for giving us some insight into how you plan these.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:29 pm 
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Fortunately, I have no worries about any of us exercising undue influence on E.'s narrative choices. Like any real artist, E's work evolves organically and wherever it's going will be a natural outgrowth of what has come before from the artist's POV.

That said, I don't have a problem with the changes I've seen thus far. Much as I own my sadism and enjoy watching the girls put through their various ordeals, I don't identify with the male characters, who are not for the most part dominant by nature, merely spoiled by a system that privileges them. So far, the only two male characters who strike me as capable of getting what they want without the support of a skewed system are Paul and Zalupatsin. They'd be able to satisfy their appetites regardless of how the society was structured. And for that reason I have some stake in what happens to them. The rest are pretty much off-the-shelf products of a busted economy that was brought to ruin by largely by dopes like themselves who then reconstructed it to their own benefit.

As for the rest, I don't care if they win or lose. If they get their way in the long run, that's merely consistent with the prevailing conditions where they are. If they lose occasionally, that's man-bites-dog news and adds a touch of suspense and unpredictability to the mix. Perhaps my affection for Anna as a character has something to do with her ability to produce unexpected outcomes. Her submission to Zalupatsin is no less unexpected than her killing of Steve (a particularly odious loser who clearly had it coming). In the E universe, rough justice is the only kind to be had and it can cut either way without disrupting the overall distopian vision.

I also like conflicted characters who have more than one note on their pianos. That's part of Lydia's appeal. She's like Dashiell Hammett's Continental Op. She likes her job and clearly enjoys the thrill of the hunt. At the same time, she's a slave herself who can't help but sympathize with her prey to some degree. That doesn't stop her from doing what she does (as the Op observed, sometimes the hound lets the fox get away but that's not how it usually goes). But it does create internal turmoil that makes us wonder what she might do next.

Overall, what I've seen since becoming one of E.'s earliest fans and supporters is a fascinating evolution in both conception and execution of narrative and depiction. Each story seems to add new layers and open new possibilities in what turns out to be a far more complex milieu than it originally appeared.

I'm good with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:47 pm 
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Quote:
when she utterly destroys Steve, that was the point I stopped being turned on by her stories. I don't want the male characters to be made to seem pathetic


Didn't you notice that Steve, unlike other men in the story, was created to be pathetic? He got his slave the last of all the boys and he got Cathy, which no one wanted to have. He got Gwen thanks to Pete, but lost her in a stupid bet, which he proposed himself. His death was not surprising to me at all, i waited for something like that, but i must admit, i waited that Anna's rush for freedom would be more... i dunno... detailed. I mean, how on earth did she get out of all the ropes and managed to slaughter the bastard with his own knife? Even for spetcnaz it's unusually cool. And we see her just standing over there like a boss with a bag with Steve's balls in it.

But maybe that story was shortened because of comics length standards. Anyway, Zalupatsin in not the only badass, who makes all the rest look miserable, you know. That difotze girl is also rich, bad, cruel, and looks down at everyone. And still she's just a daughter of a really powerful man.

I mean, have patience, man. I'm sure all the girls in these comics will get it eventually, but it's more interesting if she at least tries to fight back.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:23 am 
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otherguy wrote:
First of all, I hope you were not referring to me when you said some one called your story telling "terrible."

No, but the word came up a couple times.

And I'm not really saying that my storytelling isn't terrible. I'm saying that I have a big enough ego to deny it to the last drop of my blood. :)

A few short responses to the issues raised in the last several posts:

The contrast between Zalupatsin and the rest was not meant to make the others seem like weak pussies, it was meant to make Z look real bad. Once again, a Star Wars analogy: Look how easily Palpatine skewered the Jedi masters who came to arrest them in EpIII.

Also, Mister_Man is right. Steve was made to be pathetic from the get go. He was obnoxious and loud all the time. He has no positive characteristics. I do not know why people ended up caring for him this much.

Why didn't I show how Anna got loose? Well, because magic tricks are cooler if you don't know how they are done. :) It was basically a Houdini-esque escape trick. You think the scene where Anna emerges out of the dungeon had this impact if I showed the struggle? I think not.

(Mister_Man also mentions the Spetsnaz - I urge you to re-read what Anna says in the last panel on page 23. :) )

Ernest is not worried about the readers exercising undue influence on my choices, but it wouldn't be a bad thing entirely. I do get ideas from the forum discussions and my perceptions of the characters and storylines are impacted by the criticism I get. I do not see this as a negative influence. I'm not a mental pushover and I do not get swayed by every bit of criticism, but I do log reasonable ones at the back of my mind for later reference.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:27 am 
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otherguy wrote:
Simply put, I see these stories as male empowerment fantasies. I want the men to win (you are the author of course, lol, I am merely a humble fan, my glory days when I got to be your dofantasy editor on "the Hotel" are long over, and now I am but a humble fan. I do understand that.) Nonetheless, personally, I want the male characters to win in the long run.

So when Anna was humiliating Steve or Peter in the short term, thats OK. She is just an interesting challenge. Challenges for the male characters to overcome are good, they make the story more interesting. But when she utterly destroys Steve, that was the point I stopped being turned on by her stories. I don't want the male characters to be made to seem pathetic, and I certainly don't want them to die. In my mind, those guys are me!


This is a really interesting discussion here and I've just been reading rather than participating but I just wanted to comment on this point which comes up a lot. Of course E's work (and that of Dofantasy artists) is maledom/femsub and that's what we're all interested in. I don't think anyone is arguing that there should be any egalitarian approach here in terms of the sub part. But I think you can't have a rule that the man *always* wins in *every* situation. This takes all the tension and intrigue out of the story and makes it predictable and flat. You have to allow for the possibility that in a given situation the girl might prevail even if it is only to crush her hope that it would happen or punish her more severely after she does. Plus, surely we can't root for every single male character. We might not want to dwell on their misfortunes but surely it is more realistic to imagine that there are at least some suckers and losers in this world. What I love about E's work is these are some damn interesting stories with great twists and turns. You can't tell interesting stories if you force yourself into a straightjacket where every situation plays out as expected and certain twists are off limits. Plus the female characters don't exist in a vacuum, they can have Dads, brothers and boyfriends etc. If a girl ends up in a pickle, the involvement of a close male relative or romantic partner in that surely lends much more emotional impact. You have to allow for her Dad, boyfriend or owner to "lose" to make her plight even more wrenching. Think of Paul outsmarting Sherry's dad or Peter winning Gwen. If you don't allow for the man to lose you can't tell those types of stories.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:40 am 
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First thing first, I have to agree with the Queen of Submissions triona.

I think that strong narrative requires the girls to win occasionally. I have poarticularly championed this with the later Bouncie tales. The female A-Team expys exist solely for the purpose of creating a credible foe for Bouncie and Vernon in particular and the B.F.A in general. If the good guys always win without breaking a sweat then it rapidly becomes boring the only question being how it is done.

The trick is letting the good guys do enough to come out of the story as "winners" but the bad guys do enough to be credible and serious. Whether I achieve that is a question only others can answer for themselves. That however is the goal to be aimed for.The existence of Zalputsin is merely an uber bad guy whose continued presence in Pussiania would interest the BFA (not suggesting what future comics he may appear in :D ) I don't think he demeans the other guys he is just a nasty man. If anything he makes Peter and Jeff appear slightly more sympathetic to us.

Here is my inevitable Star Wars comparison. Compare the character of Grand Admiral Thrawn to the other bad guys. Whilst the Emperor was profoundly evil as well as supernaturally machiavellian and Vader was a bully, Thrawn was the first (and arguably the only) Imperial Commander who genuinely appeared capable of beating Han, Luke & Leia well he certainly put the fear of God into them.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:33 am 
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the Spetsnaz - I urge you to re-read what Anna says in the last panel on page 23

Ok, so, as far as i understand, she used to steal stuff from military objects? Then she has to worry about someone tougher then Zalupatsin. :D Poor lass.

Quote:
the female characters don't exist in a vacuum, they can have Dads, brothers and boyfriends etc.

But guys in E. world have different mentality. They consider women as things, not real people. Sherry's father worried about her just because he had to give her for free. It's just like when you lose some expensive i-pad. You'll be upset, but not for long. You'll just go and buy another one.

Quote:
I don't think he demeans the other guys he is just a nasty man

He is rich, powerful, has lots of armed minions, and not slavecops, who are afraid to be punished for every wrong move - he has real thugs working for him. He is a badass himself, he took part in a war. I would say that he's the toughest guy in all the E. world so far, and he only took part in one comic. I won't be surprised if soon we'll see some antagonist of his, because no other men are match for him yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:43 am 
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Mister_man wrote:
Quote:
the female characters don't exist in a vacuum, they can have Dads, brothers and boyfriends etc.

But guys in E. world have different mentality. They consider women as things, not real people. Sherry's father worried about her just because he had to give her for free. It's just like when you lose some expensive i-pad. You'll be upset, but not for long. You'll just go and buy another one.


For sure but he still "lost" something. But my main point is that it's much more of an interesting situation (IMO) for a girl to be separated from her Dad/brother/boyfriend or whatever than just taken in a vacuum. It's a little more heart wrenching. But for such a situation to arise that means that that particular male character has to "lose" and if you adopt a tenet that won't allow any male characters to lose then you deprive yourself of such interesting scenarios.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:14 am 
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triona_b wrote:
Mister_man wrote:
Quote:
the female characters don't exist in a vacuum, they can have Dads, brothers and boyfriends etc.

But guys in E. world have different mentality. They consider women as things, not real people. Sherry's father worried about her just because he had to give her for free. It's just like when you lose some expensive i-pad. You'll be upset, but not for long. You'll just go and buy another one.


For sure but he still "lost" something. But my main point is that it's much more of an interesting situation (IMO) for a girl to be separated from her Dad/brother/boyfriend or whatever than just taken in a vacuum. It's a little more heart wrenching. But for such a situation to arise that means that that particular male character has to "lose" and if you adopt a tenet that won't allow any male characters to lose then you deprive yourself of such interesting scenarios.


There is also a degree of loss to be considered. Losing a regular Ipad is bad but not worth igniting a vendetta over. A sentimental Ipad thats the last remaining link to the good old days will be remembered for longer.

Also if you lose something then you eventually get over it. Having something taken however takes longer to get over (if you ever do) and may remain in memory for a very long time.

I lost my IPad - I can buy a new one. I wonder where it went.
That bloke stole my tie - I'll never trust him, he owes me...

Its how they lose that matters. As Grand Admiral Thrawn says when Killed by Rukh - But it was so artistically done.
If they lose in a way we can respect - then we respect them despite the loss as hey nobody is perfect.
Losing due to incompetance or a mistake on their part - the embarrisment/ humilliation lasts longer.

Just my 2 cents....

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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:05 am 
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triona_b wrote:
Mister_man wrote:
Quote:
the female characters don't exist in a vacuum, they can have Dads, brothers and boyfriends etc.

But guys in E. world have different mentality. They consider women as things, not real people. Sherry's father worried about her just because he had to give her for free. It's just like when you lose some expensive i-pad. You'll be upset, but not for long. You'll just go and buy another one.


For sure but he still "lost" something. But my main point is that it's much more of an interesting situation (IMO) for a girl to be separated from her Dad/brother/boyfriend or whatever than just taken in a vacuum. It's a little more heart wrenching. But for such a situation to arise that means that that particular male character has to "lose" and if you adopt a tenet that won't allow any male characters to lose then you deprive yourself of such interesting scenarios.

The loss you mention has different meanings for different male characters in EC. For example Nathalie's father was devastated by the loss of his two daughters. Perhaps because he was a losing male character we never see him but only learn about him thru dialogue. Potts was also devastated by the loss of Sherry but for different reasons. His love of Sherry was not as pure. Maggie's father on the other hand s a complete asshole with no remorse. He doesn't care when Carol mentions the loss of their daughter in BG6. Furthermore he gets rid of Carol too. Heather in BG8 says that her parents do not care either. They are happy to sell their daughter for profit. Let's see, who else? Tawnie has a drunk stepfather who does not care. Many girls are orphans who does not have CMR's. Some like Gwen and Jenny have mothers who are also enslaved because of the lack of male relatives. In short, E does well to keep the losing males hidden from us to keep us being distracted by these potential dramas. I think it is a good choice.

Losing a daughter is one thing and losing a slave is another. So far we saw only Steve losing a slave to another male. And he didn't take it well. He reacted by turning into a violent criminal. So I guess it is a little worse then losing an ipad. :)



I also agree with the crowd who says that all the males do not have to win all the time. That would be boring, non-erenischian and dofantasy-like. When a girl is kidnapped in another dof comic, you know that she is screwed in every sense of the word. There is no escape for her. In EC, there is always a chance of twist ending. About the readers identifying with Steve, I don't understand that as I also think that he was a lousy character.


Also shame on you for mentioning Star Wars characters from the expanded universe. Not all of us are familiar with the Commander Thrawn and his battles aginst the jedi. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:10 am 
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Posts: 1605
Location: Still in that Cunthound
Fave character: Bouncie
Gender: male
Fave comic: SlaveCop 2 The Breed
Mister_man wrote:
He is rich, powerful, has lots of armed minions, and not slavecops, who are afraid to be punished for every wrong move - he has real thugs working for him. He is a badass himself, he took part in a war. I would say that he's the toughest guy in all the E. world so far, and he only took part in one comic. I won't be surprised if soon we'll see some antagonist of his, because no other men are match for him yet.


I would suggest that Zalputsin would seriously think twice about messing with any of Paul's new business partners in the Society. What he has they can get or have friends in governments deal with.


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