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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:53 pm 
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I don't doubt he'll think twice before taking on any opponent. He's survived this long by making those calculations.

Would it surprise anyone if he were actually working in league with the powers that be?

One thing I'e noticed everywhere from Japan to to the U.S. is that gangsters and black marketers are part of the political mix. They grease the wheels that keep the system running in return for a degree of immunity and a whole lot of cash.

Whatever he may say about how he comes to have shown up in the narrative, he probably has professional as well as personal motives.

Everywhere in the world there's a cold-blooded guy in a sharp suit who has connections high and low that enable him to fix things that need fixing, by whatever means necessary.

Don't know what he's up to in addition to his business with Anna, but I'm pretty sure we'll find out in due course and it won't be pretty.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:08 pm 
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MrGoodPecker wrote:
The loss you mention has different meanings for different male characters in EC. For example Nathalie's father was devastated by the loss of his two daughters. Perhaps because he was a losing male character we never see him but only learn about him thru dialogue. Potts was also devastated by the loss of Sherry but for different reasons. His love of Sherry was not as pure. Maggie's father on the other hand s a complete asshole with no remorse. He doesn't care when Carol mentions the loss of their daughter in BG6. Furthermore he gets rid of Carol too. Heather in BG8 says that her parents do not care either. They are happy to sell their daughter for profit. Let's see, who else? Tawnie has a drunk stepfather who does not care. Many girls are orphans who does not have CMR's. Some like Gwen and Jenny have mothers who are also enslaved because of the lack of male relatives. In short, E does well to keep the losing males hidden from us to keep us being distracted by these potential dramas. I think it is a good choice.

Losing a daughter is one thing and losing a slave is another. So far we saw only Steve losing a slave to another male. And he didn't take it well. He reacted by turning into a violent criminal. So I guess it is a little worse then losing an ipad. :)



I also agree with the crowd who says that all the males do not have to win all the time. That would be boring, non-erenischian and dofantasy-like. When a girl is kidnapped in another dof comic, you know that she is screwed in every sense of the word. There is no escape for her. In EC, there is always a chance of twist ending. About the readers identifying with Steve, I don't understand that as I also think that he was a lousy character.


Also shame on you for mentioning Star Wars characters from the expanded universe. Not all of us are familiar with the Commander Thrawn and his battles aginst the jedi. :lol:


What a second... COMMANDER Thrawn battles the JEDI?
Spoiler Alert!

{Goes through old worn copy of Heir to the Empire} no must be Clone Wars...

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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:05 pm 
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All this talk of loss and the relative way it would affect different men is interesting but I think one big factor is being ignored.

Most enslavements are cash transactions.

Don't look at it as losing a daughter, look at it as gaining a thousand bucks! :mrgreen:


(obviously this doesn't apply to situations like the one poor Mr Potts finds himself in...) ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:33 pm 
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The good Doctor is simplifying matters here. It is not a question of "losing a daughter but gaining a thousand bucks" as he claims.
No! no.no, no!
You lose a daughter (and a whole pile of financial commitments) but gain a top of the range speaker system and a whole pile of disposable income :l


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:13 pm 
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m113 wrote:
What a second... COMMANDER Thrawn battles the JEDI?
Spoiler Alert!

Hey I said I'm not familiar with it.. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:15 pm 
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Rufus wrote:
I would suggest that Zalputsin would seriously think twice about messing with any of Paul's new business partners in the Society. What he has they can get or have friends in governments deal with.

Well he is already messing with them. He is demanding ransom from Herman DiFotze. Espada in the Society says that Difotze is the big dog there, so there you go.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:53 pm 
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Erenisch wrote:
The contrast between Zalupatsin and the rest was not meant to make the others seem like weak pussies, it was meant to make Z look real bad. Once again, a Star Wars analogy: Look how easily Palpatine skewered the Jedi masters who came to arrest them in EpIII.

Also, Mister_Man is right. Steve was made to be pathetic from the get go. He was obnoxious and loud all the time. He has no positive characteristics. I do not know why people ended up caring for him this much.


A: The other Jedi's Palpatine skewered were pussies whom no one respects, so I think u just proved my point. Mace Windu lasted a few more seconds, so he gets some respect, but thats mostly just cause he's Samuel L jackson. The rest of those jedi were totally weak pussies.

B: As I have said again and again "Injustice is sexy." NONE of the male characters who won in these stories would had "earned" it in the real world. I complete disagree with Ernest Greene's interpretation of this. There was never any sense that the males who "deserved" to win would be the ones who won. I wanted Steve to win precisely because he was so undeserving of it. Steve's triumph in BG 7 is a celebration of injustice, the sexy, oppressive world the women are born into. Steve's defeat of Anna was one of the best moments in the series. Seeing Steve defeat Anna was so sweet, precisely because she was smarter and bolder than him, and it seemed unfair for a guy like that to be the one who got her. It was the triumph of sexy injustice. It was a perfect moment. I found it much sexier to have Steve beat Anna than to recruit a sword fighting mafia guy to do it.

Besides which, Steve honestly never seemed much worse than any of the other guys to me. He seemed to treat his friends well, he got drunk and made a stupid bet, but he never treated Peter to badly like any of the jock characters we have seen. Those guys were the jerks, I would not have minded so much if one of them died, If you want us to dislike a character, have them treat the males badly.

Steve was a human character, he had real emotions. Steve got frustrated and impatient, while those may not be admirable qualities, he was at least interesting. The scenes between him and Anna were great. First when she was mocking him, then he got angry and took out his frustration on Gwen. Steve was well written, he seemed like a real guy. If he was obnoxious and loud, that just seemed like the logical result of growing up in a world where the vice principal let the class gang bang the math teacher. I think Steve as a character made the stories more interesting, and I was sorry to see him go.

The world of the E-verse is unfair, that unfairness is what makes it sexy. The real world is unfair too, just in different ways, which perhaps is what makes the stories so bizarrely relatable. It just doesn't fit to me that we have established this unfair world, where thousands upon thousands of men win despite not deserving it, yet Steve is singled out as the one guy and only guy who "didn't deserve it," so its ok to cut off his balls. Steve was merely the logical result of his environment, he was no more "deserving" of death than anyone else born in that world. Besides, I don't WANT the E-verse to be fair. And I also don't want lots of other guys to start losing, as has started happening recently, to some how balance it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:20 am 
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otherguy wrote:

A: The other Jedi's Palpatine skewered were pussies whom no one respects, so I think u just proved my point. Mace Windu lasted a few more seconds, so he gets some respect, but thats mostly just cause he's Samuel L jackson. The rest of those jedi were totally weak pussies.
.

Ah there s the problem. You are lost to the dark side :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:00 am 
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Quote:
Don't look at it as losing a daughter, look at it as gaining a thousand bucks!

I once had a dog, who gave birth to 7 little puppies. They were expensive to sell and my parents finally sold them all, and despite we got lots of cash for them, all of us were upset. We kinda got used to them. They became like family members. I remember the eyes of my mom when she had to sell another pup...
But they cost much less then thousand, of course. :|

Otherguy, maybe you think so because you don't like Anna. :?:


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:57 am 
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MrGoodPecker wrote:
Rufus wrote:
I would suggest that Zalputsin would seriously think twice about messing with any of Paul's new business partners in the Society. What he has they can get or have friends in governments deal with.

Well he is already messing with them. He is demanding ransom from Herman DiFotze. Espada in the Society says that Difotze is the big dog there, so there you go.


Either that or he is declaring a war he is not yet ready to fight.

His organisation may well have the ability to handle kidnappings but remember that this one is totally unplanned it is a "gift" from his beloved Anna. To borrow the alliterative maxim, beloved of the British Army "Proper preparation prevents piss poor performance"
The group are not prepped to do it properly so mistakes are likely to be made. He is making enemies who will stamp on any mistakes.
Having said that, I don't see it ending well for Maria either way do you?

The other thing here is this is Pussiania, what long term plans does DiFotze have for his daughter, For females kidnapping is not so much a heath and safety hazard as a guarantee. His prestige may take a bump and a strategic alliance, potentially, is at risk which would annoy him, but to lose a daughter- well "stuff" happens as they say! :D

In support of my contention here I would particularly draw your attention to the curious case of the ending of the"Aluminium Wars" in Russia


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:30 pm 
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when i first read karma I hoped that Maria would be taken along with Cathy and Anna. But know I kind of hope her dad does get her back only to sale her. I think that would really crush her. In Karma the only reason she is as she is because she firmly believes that her father will get her out of the situation. However, it may be nice to see her get broken into a proper slave the way she is.

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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:13 pm 
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How do you know Zalputsin isn't ready for the war he's starting? He's a mercenary in addition to being a gangster. He may have been brought into the picture by parties yet unrevealed who have retained his services.

I agree there will be trouble, but I know where I'm placing my bet on the outcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:33 pm 
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"Steve was a human character, he had real emotions. Steve got frustrated and impatient, while those may not be admirable qualities, he was at least interesting. The scenes between him and Anna were great. First when she was mocking him, then he got angry and took out his frustration on Gwen. Steve was well written, he seemed like a real guy. If he was obnoxious and loud, that just seemed like the logical result of growing up in a world where the vice principal let the class gang bang the math teacher. I think Steve as a character made the stories more interesting, and I was sorry to see him go."

He's also a minor character who calls far more attention to himself than his place in the story line would seem to merit.

I thought that was the definition of a badly made character.

And it's not correct to say that E.'s defiantly unjust world is entirely non-meritocratic. Some of the characters, such as Paul and the DiFotzes, have clearly elevated themselves to powerful positions by virtue of their intelligence and ambition. In any system, no matter how unfair, some will adapt and thrive much better than others.

Every society eventually stratifies by class, and it's not a matter of who deserves what, it's a matter of who figures out how to work the system to best advantage.

Steven was a privileged little shit of some intelligence who might have had much more out of a much longer life had he been made of better materials. As it turned out, he was no loss to anyone.

And occasional justice doesn't undermine an unjust system, as we see constantly in our own world. It just makes that injustice all the more obvious. From the very beginning of E's universe there have been loser guys who couldn't catch a break and more successful guys, even in school, who got more than there share.

That's the way any world works. E.'s universe would lack the suspense of the real world were it not for power imbalances among both men and women. It's unfair consistently. Women always come out the losers in the long run, but so do a certain percentage of the men, while others quite clearly get their way because they know how to do so.

I have no doubt that the sexy part of the fundamental injustice in this environment will remain intact no matter what happens in individual situations.

And personally, Steven's death was brought about by his own poor choice of target for his resentment over being one of the losers in society that has no compassion for either men or women. I was delighted to see him go not because he had it coming but because he was a pain in the butt by the definitions of his own culture.

As Clint Eastwood observed in Unforgiven, deserve's got nothing to do with it. That applies to everyone. Even the powerful men who get whatever they want don't enjoy their privilege because they're deserving. They just take advantage more effectively of systemic injustice. Doesn't make them better in any way, just better suited to their circumstances.

I've known my share of rich guys and bad guys who prospered in our own unfair world and never observed them to have been rewarded for their virtues, only for their cunning and ruthlessness.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:16 pm 
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ernestgreene wrote:

He's also a minor character who calls far more attention to himself than his place in the story line would seem to merit.

I thought that was the definition of a badly made character.


I did not say that. I think you are confusing me with some one else who you were arguing with earlier.

ernestgreene wrote:
Steven was a privileged little shit of some intelligence who might have had much more out of a much longer life had he been made of better materials. As it turned out, he was no loss to anyone.



Steve wasn't privileged. The main criticisms against him was that he was poor and ugly, both things that he was born into. Steve was the least privileged male in the whole story. The only difference I can see between Steve and Peter is that Peter had a rich daddy and a cute face. But Steve did possess the mental qualities that the E-verse seems to value. He had both desire and ambition. Steve wanted Gwen, so he broke into her house and took her, he wanted revenge on Anna, so he took it. He pursued his desires, rather than passively waiting for something to fall into his lap, he took action. He was born into poverty, but he wanted more and he went for it. That actually puts him ahead of a lot of the other males.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:49 pm 
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Apologies, otherguy. I did indeed conflate your comments with those of someoneelse. I think the confusion is pretty easy to understand.

However, it turns out that you and I also disagree over some of the same things, so in terms of content, nothing really changes.

Granted that Steven doesn't enjoy all the privileges of his gender status, but he is nonetheless a beneficiary of a system that allows him to kidnap and hold a free woman without consequence (until she kills him). He may be unpopular and a bit pathetic in an ugly way, but he still enjoys the status that comes with a set of balls in E.'s universe.

And I'm still glad he lost his head. Even if I lived in the same society, I'd regard him as a jerk who got what he had coming for taking on someone he was too dumb to recognize as dangerous.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:16 am 
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ernestgreene wrote:
Apologies, otherguy. I did indeed conflate your comments with those of someoneelse. I think the confusion is pretty easy to understand.

However, it turns out that you and I also disagree over some of the same things, so in terms of content, nothing really changes.

Granted that Steven doesn't enjoy all the privileges of his gender status, but he is nonetheless a beneficiary of a system that allows him to kidnap and hold a free woman without consequence (until she kills him). He may be unpopular and a bit pathetic in an ugly way, but he still enjoys the status that comes with a set of balls in E.'s universe.

And I'm still glad he lost his head. Even if I lived in the same society, I'd regard him as a jerk who got what he had coming for taking on someone he was too dumb to recognize as dangerous.


Haha be careful when you try to imagine what you'd be like if you lived in this society. I don't think any of us can say what we'd be like if we spent our pivotal childhood years in a society so different. That's really what I'e been saying about Steve. He was no worse than any other guy, he was the natural result of his environment. (I'm fascinated by ancient Rome for the same reason).

Steven might appear privileged when we compare him to ourselves, or to the women of that society. But judge him in his own context. Look at him the way he doubtless saw himself. All of his friends had more money and better looks than him. He was the least privileged male in the story, he was the least privileged male in his life. Every guy he knew was born with more opportunity than he was. When we view him from his own perspective, it almost seems to easy to pick on him. I tend to root for the underdog, and compared to all the other men, Steve was the underdog. He was the opposite of privileged.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:35 am 
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I have to disagree withe the "Steve was unprivileged" argument. He was privileged allright. Think about it. His family had a nice house and as we saw at the end of BG9, he also had a nice convertible sports car. He bought a slavegirl (Cathy) with his allowance. A slavegirl like Cathy is like a used-car so imagine his allowance. he also had a huge room with slave compartments built in the wall, also a huge sound proof dungeon. I don't think anybody should call him poor. nly evidence that he does not have "enough" money is that his ponycart was not as big as Peter's . Oh boo-hoo.

As we know from our real lives, there is always a bigger pony-cart. :)

Him being uglier than the average guy also has no importance in this universe. None of the other boys got their slavegirls by their good looks. They kidnapped or bought them. Who cares if the slavegirl thinks that you are ugly or not. You own the girl for godsake.

Steve's bad qualities are his own. He was more brutal than the other boys as Gwen and Cathy say in BG7, and Nathalie says in BG8.

In the final analysis, what makes Steve different than the others was his stupidity. His stupidity and inferiority complex. That is why he betrayed the trust of his best friend Peter, by kidnapping his girlfriend. Remember that Peter was a true friend, letting him register Gwen as his slave in the first place. The final proof of his stupidity is that he let a chained girl overpower hm in his own dungeon and got killed. Well, good riddance if you ask me.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:36 am 
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I maintain that every single other male character in the story had more privilege than he did.


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:50 am 
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There's a difference between popularity and privilege. The other guys look down on him, most likely because he looks down on himself. He sees himself as a victim of an unfair world when it's manifestly far less fair to every woman living in it. He still lives a comfortable life and gets most everything he wants. Instead of taking satisfaction in that, he judges himself by what others have that he doesn't - the mark of a loser in any society. The game was rigged. The deck was stacked. Yadda yadda. Truth is he just didn't play the game very well and relied on brutality to get him over where his lack of self-confidence undid him.

I'm sure through every moment he was abusing Anna she was sizing him up for what he was. Considering what we now know about her background, he was nothing more than an annoyance to her and easily rid of. How did she get loose (which we don't see) and get the drop on him? She probably pretended to find something appealing about him for the necessary thirty seconds of distraction while she freed herself and cut his head off. Frankly, a guy who can't do any better with all is advantages has it coming.

In that way, he was a weak Roman who met a weak Roman's fate. Not many privileged Romans lived to advanced age either because they weren't Roman enough to leverage their advantages against one another and all the subject peoples around them. Ruthless as Roman society was, it was still somewhat meritocratic as every society is by its own terms. If you can do what that society values people for doing, you'll be rewarded. If you can't, you can expect no mercy.

Frankly, I'm surprised Anna didn't fuck the chump in the ass before killing him just so he could know for one minute what the pleasure of his company was truly like.

In the words of Philip Marlowe: "I believe in mercy but justice is what keeps happening to people."


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 Post subject: Re: Karma
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:10 am 
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ernestgreene wrote:
How do you know Zalputsin isn't ready for the war he's starting? He's a mercenary in addition to being a gangster. He may have been brought into the picture by parties yet unrevealed who have retained his services.

I agree there will be trouble, but I know where I'm placing my bet on the outcome.


He does indeed have all the experience and professionalls to potentially do a good job, my point was that most of them are back home He came "here" to punish a couple of wayward foot soldiers and reclaim Anna. He has not made any of the forward preperatition sin Pussiania for this job. It is just him and a cadre of bodyguards, most of his organisation is back home. There is no place set up as a hideout, no pre-set ransom plan and no escape route. He can and doubtless will improvise but that is where danger can lay.


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