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 Post subject: Erenischian philosophy?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:54 pm 
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I have been reading about slavery and found this on the BBC website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/slavery/ethics/philosophers_1.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/slavery/ethics/justifications.shtml

What do you guys think about this? Smart learned philiosophers trying to justify slavery?

Is there an erenischian philosophy of slavery?

I'm talking about the in-universe philosophy of course. I 'm not saying Erenisch is pro-slavery irl.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:56 am 
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In Repurposed, Jeff's mom argues that "lack of choice means lack of responsibility and guilt". I think this makes some sense from the women's point of view in erenischverse. The men would agree with the philosophers on your list.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:50 am 
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Here she summarizes it all.

Attachment:
philosophy.jpg


In the next panel she also says that this way she felt pleasures she was ashamed to pursue. If I remember orrectly we talked about an argument similar to this on this forum before. I couldn't find the discussion in the short time I had.

The idea is that submissives have suppressed desires because of social pressures. Giving up control to somebody else helps them enjoy these desires without guilt.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:09 pm 
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There was another discussion recently about what Holes says in the office comic. It can be seen as a counterpoint to what Jeff's mom says. Jeffs mom thinks men are superior and willingly surrenders herself to their will. Holly thinks the opposite but she has to play by their rules anyway.

She goes:
"men are lustful animals. They are slaves to their dicks. In a sense, they are the weaker gender. They are unable to control themselves so they went to unbeleivable lengths to control women."


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:35 pm 
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I'm not trying to develop a single philosophical stance in my comics. I try to understand what different characters might be thinking. People rationalize all kinds of bad situations.

This is not to say there is no real philosophy in the comics. If you are a fan of philosophy like me, you may be able to notice a well-known Hegelian metaphor hidden in a certain character's arc.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:14 pm 
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Erenisch wrote:
well-known Hegelian metaphor hidden in a certain character's arc.

Oh I know so many Hegelian metaphors. I wonder which one it is :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:04 am 
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You know, sometimes E is wise as an owl.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:34 am 
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Thon wrote:
You know, sometimes E is wise as an owl.
:D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_dialectic


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:03 am 
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Interesting link there E!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:35 am 
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Interesting read, but which character specifically you refer to? Two characters have long arcs. Is it Maggie or Sherry?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:07 am 
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samantha wrote:
Interesting read, but which character specifically you refer to? Two characters have long arcs. Is it Maggie or Sherry?

It is the Paul-Sherry arc starting in The Hotel and developing in The Society and The Office. It will be concluded in a future episode.


Here is the wiki summary to serve as a template for my explanation:
Quote:
That the master–slave dialectic can be interpreted as an internal process occurring in one person or as an external process between two or more people is a result, in part, of the fact that Hegel asserts an "end to the antithesis of subject and object". What occurs in the human mind also occurs outside of it. The objective and subjective, according to Hegel, sublate one another until they are unified, and the "story" takes this process through its various "moments" when the lifting up of two contradictory moments results in a higher unity.

First, the two abstract consciousnesses meet and are astounded at the realisation of the self as a foreign object. Each can choose to ignore the other, in which case no self-consciousness forms and each views the other merely as an animated object rather than an equivalent subject. Or, they become mesmerized by the mirror-like other and attempt, as they previously had done in controlling their own body, to assert their will.

According to Hegel,

"On approaching the other it has lost its own self, since it finds itself as another being; secondly, it has thereby sublated that other, for this primitive consciousness does not regard the other as essentially real but sees its own self in the other."[2]

Reaction

When initially confronted with another person, the self cannot be immediately recognized 'Appearing thus immediately on the scene, they are for one another like ordinary objects, independent shapes, individuals submerged in the being [or immediacy] of Life'.
Death struggle

A struggle to the death ensues. However, if one of the two should die, the achievement of self-consciousness fails. Hegel refers to this failure as "abstract negation" not the negation or sublation required. This death is avoided by the agreement, communication of, or subordination to, slavery. In this struggle the Master emerges as Master because he does not fear death since he does not see his identity dependent on life, while the slave out of this fear consents to the slavery. This experience of fear on the part of the slave is crucial, however, in a later moment of the dialectic, where it becomes the prerequisite experience for the slave's further development.
Enslavement and mastery

Truth of oneself as self-conscious is achieved only if both live; the recognition of the other gives each of them the objective truth and self-certainty required for self-consciousness. Thus, the two enter into the relation of master/slave and preserve the recognition of each other.
Contradiction and Resolution
However, this state is not a happy one and does not achieve full self-consciousness. The recognition by the slave is merely on pain of death. The master's self-consciousness is dependent on the slave for recognition and also has a mediated relation with nature: the slave works with nature and begins to shape it into products for the master. As the slave creates more and more products with greater and greater sophistication through his own creativity, he begins to see himself reflected in the products he created, he realises that the world around him was created by his own hands, thus the slave is no longer alienated from his own labour and achieves self-consciousness, while the master on the other hand has become wholly dependent on the products created by his slave; thus the master is enslaved by the labour of his slave.


I inserted this "death struggle" device in The Hotel. When Paul mounts Sherry in their room for the first time he threatens her with death if she fails to obey and serve him properly. She accepts defeat. That instance formally initiates their relationship as master and slave.

In The Society, she reaches a higher level of consciousness when she realizes her power over her master. She becomes aware of her value, or as Hegel puts it, she is no longer "alienated from her own labor".

In The Office, she decides to use her creativity in order to deepen and exploit her master's dependency on her and establish her power on him.

Soon we will see if she manages to succeed or not. Is Paul a man who could be "enslaved by his own slave"?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:12 am 
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hmmm. The hotel was published few years ago. You are a patient writer I have to admit :)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:13 am 
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Wow, this is deep-level stuff, E. Any other glimpses of applied philosophy? Very interesting.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:57 pm 
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I'm embarrassed to say this is the first time I get a concept of German philosopy clearly :oops: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:07 am 
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Erenisch wrote:
samantha wrote:
Interesting read, but which character specifically you refer to? Two characters have long arcs. Is it Maggie or Sherry?

It is the Paul-Sherry arc starting in The Hotel and developing in The Society and The Office. It will be concluded in a future episode.


Here is the wiki summary to serve as a template for my explanation:
Quote:
That the master–slave dialectic can be interpreted as an internal process occurring in one person or as an external process between two or more people is a result, in part, of the fact that Hegel asserts an "end to the antithesis of subject and object". What occurs in the human mind also occurs outside of it. The objective and subjective, according to Hegel, sublate one another until they are unified, and the "story" takes this process through its various "moments" when the lifting up of two contradictory moments results in a higher unity.

First, the two abstract consciousnesses meet and are astounded at the realisation of the self as a foreign object. Each can choose to ignore the other, in which case no self-consciousness forms and each views the other merely as an animated object rather than an equivalent subject. Or, they become mesmerized by the mirror-like other and attempt, as they previously had done in controlling their own body, to assert their will.

According to Hegel,

"On approaching the other it has lost its own self, since it finds itself as another being; secondly, it has thereby sublated that other, for this primitive consciousness does not regard the other as essentially real but sees its own self in the other."[2]

Reaction

When initially confronted with another person, the self cannot be immediately recognized 'Appearing thus immediately on the scene, they are for one another like ordinary objects, independent shapes, individuals submerged in the being [or immediacy] of Life'.
Death struggle

A struggle to the death ensues. However, if one of the two should die, the achievement of self-consciousness fails. Hegel refers to this failure as "abstract negation" not the negation or sublation required. This death is avoided by the agreement, communication of, or subordination to, slavery. In this struggle the Master emerges as Master because he does not fear death since he does not see his identity dependent on life, while the slave out of this fear consents to the slavery. This experience of fear on the part of the slave is crucial, however, in a later moment of the dialectic, where it becomes the prerequisite experience for the slave's further development.
Enslavement and mastery

Truth of oneself as self-conscious is achieved only if both live; the recognition of the other gives each of them the objective truth and self-certainty required for self-consciousness. Thus, the two enter into the relation of master/slave and preserve the recognition of each other.
Contradiction and Resolution
However, this state is not a happy one and does not achieve full self-consciousness. The recognition by the slave is merely on pain of death. The master's self-consciousness is dependent on the slave for recognition and also has a mediated relation with nature: the slave works with nature and begins to shape it into products for the master. As the slave creates more and more products with greater and greater sophistication through his own creativity, he begins to see himself reflected in the products he created, he realises that the world around him was created by his own hands, thus the slave is no longer alienated from his own labour and achieves self-consciousness, while the master on the other hand has become wholly dependent on the products created by his slave; thus the master is enslaved by the labour of his slave.


I inserted this "death struggle" device in The Hotel. When Paul mounts Sherry in their room for the first time he threatens her with death if she fails to obey and serve him properly. She accepts defeat. That instance formally initiates their relationship as master and slave.

In The Society, she reaches a higher level of consciousness when she realizes her power over her master. She becomes aware of her value, or as Hegel puts it, she is no longer "alienated from her own labor".

In The Office, she decides to use her creativity in order to deepen and exploit her master's dependency on her and establish her power on him.

Soon we will see if she manages to succeed or not. Is Paul a man who could be "enslaved by his own slave"?

Thanks a lot. This is exactly what I wanted to know. Youve done an awesome job integrating philosophy in porn. Now I have to read everything again carefully for more hidden gems like this :)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:35 am 
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wow. :shock:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:14 pm 
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OK so I had to slake long thing written out but then my browser crashed so short and simple being that I find it interesting that I couldn't make it through a total of three lines while reading through the two articles on his Storico justifications of slavery without being reminded of instances of frustration iPad while debating the justify ability of our current water production of capitalism.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:33 am 
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Erenisch wrote:
Soon we will see if she manages to succeed or not. Is Paul a man who could be "enslaved by his own slave"?
Was "the Game" the resolution of your question? I loved the comic and reviewed it with this philosopical problem in mind. You are the master of your craft. My hat is off to you sir!


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