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 Post subject: Re: executions in Bali
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 5:32 pm 
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Puppygirl-Jugs wrote:
Some disturbing facts that may put the executions in Bali in a darker light have come to the fore front.

• The Indonesian government also blocked attempts to bring the case to the international court of human rights.



I just thought I'd mention that the US actually works against the ICC. It also has the death penalty.

How come people don't equate 'state sanctioned murder' with soldiers who are by their nature guilty of pre-mediated murder or conspiracy?
The argument is that an executioner/ hangman is no different to the soldiers.

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 Post subject: Re: executions in Bali
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 2:05 am 
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m113 wrote:
The argument is that an executioner/ hangman is no different to the soldiers.

Actually it is different. In one case you are killing an unarmed defenseless person. Soldiers are fighting other soldiers with weapons.


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 Post subject: Re: executions in Bali
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 3:24 am 
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Bangerman wrote:
m113 wrote:
The argument is that an executioner/ hangman is no different to the soldiers.

Actually it is different. In one case you are killing an unarmed defenseless person. Soldiers are fighting other soldiers with weapons.

Unfortunately, soldiers doing My Lai type massacres are far from uncommon.

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 Post subject: Re: executions in Bali
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 12:23 pm 
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m113 wrote:
How come people don't equate 'state sanctioned murder' with soldiers who are by their nature guilty of pre-mediated murder or conspiracy?
The argument is that an executioner/ hangman is no different to the soldiers.


The simple answer is in the use of the phrase "state sancitioned". Soldiers and Executioners act as the sanctioned servamts of the state and within the law. Be that Capital Law or The laws of war.

Executioners are a weird case in this matter they stand outside the prison system and (certainly this was the case in Britain and France, I am not so sure about the USA) the condemned was *handed over" by the Prison Governor to the Executioner for the sentence to be carried out. The process demanded this in order that only sanctioned officials were responsible for the death and that the sentence was carried out as set out by the condemning judge. If anyone else had done it, or if a Warden had used a pistol during a bungled execution (think if Tom Hanks had shot that guy in the Green Mile) then they would face a murder charge as well.

When soldiers "do a My Lai" or any other war-crime they transgress the rules of war and are punished accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: executions in Bali
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 1:11 pm 
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Bangerman wrote:
m113 wrote:
The argument is that an executioner/ hangman is no different to the soldiers.

Actually it is different. In one case you are killing an unarmed defenseless person. Soldiers are fighting other soldiers with weapons.

Unless they are drone operators.


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 Post subject: Re: executions in Bali
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 2:44 pm 
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Rufus wrote:
When soldiers "do a My Lai" or any other war-crime they transgress the rules of war and are punished accordingly.

See History of the law of war on land. Depends on the "rules" being used at the time. And whether or not actions will be covered up, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: executions in Bali
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:20 pm 
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FringeThumb wrote:
See History of the law of war on land. Depends on the "rules" being used at the time. And whether or not actions will be covered up, etc.


I have read it and I cannot wholly agree with the Professor. He conflates two different things:- the statutes of war set out by international conferences and the actual "rules of war" understood by combatant nations. Given that it jumps from an Old Testament quote to the American Civil War via brief excursions to an insecurely dated Sanskrit document and a bit of Sun Tzu, you can also suggest he may be a little picky in his evidence.

You are correct that the rules of war modify down the ages but actually the evidence is that a lot of them have survived intact for the longest periods of time. There have always certain unwritten rules of war, that never needed an International Conference or General Orders to exist, it was the constitution of "civilised war" and were as true in the Assyrian Empire 3,000 years ago as they were in the Napoleonic Wars of 200 years ago. The most famous of these is "Touching the wall with the Ram" where once a besieging army had began an assault or touched the wall with a battering ram then the city was fair game should it fall. Prior to the assault any besieger was required to offer generous terms to the besieged city. The Duke of Wellington, a noted and occasionally savage disciplinarian, let his men vent themselves on the hapless citizens of Badajoz for 3 days in 1812, after a very bloody storming. He then hanged any man who still preferred looting to returning to normal military duties. Nobody thought this was a war crime and neither the French or Spanish authorities made much fuss about it.

Warfare in the Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantine, Saracen, Ottoman, Medieval and later European periods was always dominated by both explicit and implicit rules of war. Henry V massacred Prisoners at Agincourt, and in doing so demeaned his victory if only by denying his men immense ransoms, but the reasons were understood. It is interesting that he mentions the special orders applied to the Union Army in 1863, as this very force, under General Sherman would unleash the March to the Sea that burnt down countless Confederate plantations and towns, and waged the most direct war on women and children. Not to mention General Sheridan's infamous promise to devastate the land so completely that a crow flying over it "would need to bring it's own rations.".

We must always be careful about applying modern precepts and morality to ancient events. Laws are always best understood by the morality of the time.


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