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 Post subject: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 6:35 pm 
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A thought occurred to me a day or two ago, it was this;

While we all enjoy seeing our favourite slaves girls tied up, stripped, fucked, humiliated, even punished. We all get worried if something really bad (as in causing death) might seem to be ahead of them. Other artists like Cagri take a more aggressive tack. Like in Fansadox Collection 36 – Game Over, he had his main female character gutted and stuffed and displayed like a wax works figure, and in his more recent Fansadox Collection 399 he had the two female captives dipped in molten gold and turned into statues. Now I am not saying that he should not do these works, for he has his fans too and they should get their jollies on the page. What I am saying is that if E was to plan to do that to one of our faves, even Anna, who we all enjoyed seeing trapped in Steve’s basement, there would be a shocked outcry from the fan base and demands to save that favourite slave.
So it could be said we are a softer group of pervs. We like to see all the captivity and abuse, but we grow attached to the slavegirls and do not want to see something really bad that would destroy them happen. Which I think speaks volumes of E’s skills at creating characters that on one hand we enjoy seeing used, on the other we care about.

Personally, I think it is nice to find a forum where the softies rule. :)


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 4:49 am 
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Puppygirl-Jugs wrote:
A thought occurred to me a day or two ago, it was this;

While we all enjoy seeing our favourite slaves girls tied up, stripped, fucked, humiliated, even punished. We all get worried if something really bad (as in causing death) might seem to be ahead of them. Other artists like Cagri take a more aggressive tack. Like in Fansadox Collection 36 – Game Over, he had his main female character gutted and stuffed and displayed like a wax works figure, and in his more recent Fansadox Collection 399 he had the two female captives dipped in molten gold and turned into statues. Now I am not saying that he should not do these works, for he has his fans too and they should get their jollies on the page. What I am saying is that if E was to plan to do that to one of our faves, even Anna, who we all enjoyed seeing trapped in Steve’s basement, there would be a shocked outcry from the fan base and demands to save that favourite slave.
So it could be said we are a softer group of pervs. We like to see all the captivity and abuse, but we grow attached to the slavegirls and do not want to see something really bad that would destroy them happen. Which I think speaks volumes of E’s skills at creating characters that on one hand we enjoy seeing used, on the other we care about.

Personally, I think it is nice to find a forum where the softies rule. :)


I'll agree with you, and say how Erenisch changed my perception on a balance when making my own erotica, since I started out experimenting with different ideas and scenarios, weak and strong ones, and then finding Erenisch's work, kind of gave me a sense of a benchmark to look to. Main protagonists and antagonists, each comic feels like an action tv series, the characters are established and it always end in an enticing cliffhanger or wonderful conclusion. Either way you feel it ends on the right note, and you're always glad that your favourite characters are still there, to either suck, fight or enslave in their next comic appearance :)

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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 8:39 am 
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First of all, thanks for the praise embedded in the posts above.

Maybe I should clarify my opinion on extreme violence and Sn**f. I just read another thread on Dolcett and his (?) unique fetishes, and I was about to respond to that before I saw this one. It is well-known to the veterans of this forum that I like Dolcett, and I'd definitely count him among my influences. The gynophagia thing is not a particular fetish of mine, but I understand where it comes from and what it represents. Gynophagia in particular and Sn**f in general is the ultimate form of domination/submission in Dolcett's stories, and that central theme appeals to me.

What I like most in Dolcett's stories is how mundane and normal those horrible acts are depicted as . The mailman delivers execution orders to a woman, and she willingly turns herself in at the slughterhouse without hesitation. It is the norm of their universe, kind of an extreme Stepford wives situation. They don't question the order, it is all natural to them. The situation is unbelievably ridiculous but Dolcett plays it straight, without any tongue-in-cheek stuff. It is his unique fantasy, pure and simple. If he wasn't anonymous, he would not be able to create his vision without compromise., and it wouldn't have any value then.

Now back to the issue of Sn**f in general. Believe it or not, deep down you all like it. It doesn't have to be sexual - you like it when Rambo kills a seemingly endless number Vietcong soldiers, when Avengers rip apart Chitauri, when you mow down Nazis in the latest Wolfenstein game ... it excites you when you watch Freddy Kruger slash some teens. Every vampire and zombie movie is essentially a Sn**f movie. It is primal. Our ancestors used to drink vine from the skulls of their vanquished foes, thankfully we watch movies and read comics.

When it comes to sex, however, even the most "deviant" of us feel that Sn**f is wrong. Context matters. I personally think that there is no real difference. Like everything else, there are good examples and there are bad examples. Dolcett, in my humble opinion, is one of the better ones. Remember that he makes it perfectly clear that it is fantasy. There are characters in his story who die over and over again, showing us that they don't actually die. (Silly of me. Obviously, they don't even exist. They are figments of the artist's imagination, scribbled on paper.)

Back to Dofantasy artists. I haven't seen the comics PJ mentioned, but I think Cagri should be praised for those "deviations" from the official Dofantasy line. I did similar stuff myself a few times before, in Slavecop, in Slave Fair 2, in BG6, etc... but I was very very careful to keep it off-camera and/or leave room for speculation. If I weren't concerned about banks giving the company hard time, there would be more of those controversial situations in my comics. Again, Sn**f is not actually a big fetish of mine, but I don't like constraints on my creativity. The SF series and the SiT series would be considerably darker if I were completely free to do what I wantd.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 12:41 pm 
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As one who commented on the Dolcett issue,I have to admit I had not considered the link between s***f and action/horror movies. I am a huge fan of action Movies and find the original "Taken" to be a great movie so perhaps I should soften my stance or at least redefine it.

I enjoy watching an action hero hand out brutal "justice" as much as the next guy, but I don't watch action movies for gratification I watch them for mindless entertainment, so perhaps I should have said I have no time for brutal torture for sexual gratification. My stories have occasionally dealt with death and people have been brutally killed in them, other characters have been treated with a callous disregard. Yet I have always done that off screen as you people ain't here to read that. You are here for the sexual degradation and the use of females.


Last edited by Rufus on Mon May 25, 2015 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 2:24 pm 
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Well, as the saying goes, De gustibus non est disputandum. I've said before that I don't care for thanatos with my eros (must be in a scholarly mood today) and though I understand Dolcett's appeal, it just doesn't work for me.

As for the entirely human taste for mayhem as entertainment, you can't look back in history far enough to find out if there was ever a time when it didn't exist. I'm relieved that we can now simulate events that satisfy that taste and I do consider that progress.

However, in popular entertainment today there are elements I still find problematic. What I really don't like is "happy violence" of the kind depicted in Hollywood movies where the macho heroes trade wisecracks while raising the body-count. I doubt it does any greater harm in the world. I just find it distasteful.

Sn@ff is a hard limit for me. If I see it in sexual context, I make a point of not going back to wherever I did. As has already been pointed out, our sympathies fundamentally like with the victims and while we can take all the guilty pleasure we want in watching them suffer to a point, when that point becomes lethal, we lose someone we've come to care about if only briefly.

But I have no illusions about human nature, or nature in general (in order for one thing to live another must die for any species to continue) when it comes to inherent cruelty taken to the extreme. Yes, a lot of people find that fun to see and I don't judge them for it. It's a taste I simply don't share.

I think this may have something to do with my early experiences as a newspaper reporter. Without going into any details whatsoever about the things I saw on that job, I can say that there's nothing sexy about the aftermath of fatal misadventure in the real world.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 2:30 pm 
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Thought-provoking! It is often the case that taboo causes alarm and an unclear view, and Erenesch offers a very level-headed perspective. It's fantasy. Some ideas might seem pretty sick, but they are flights of fancy to play with a theme, not indications of a real-world moral compass. Great reminder.

Thanks guys!


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 4:26 pm 
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Well, in my comics only the red shirts die. Cagri has the luxury of killing off his characters because he mostly does one shots, but I invest a lot of time to develop my characters. They are precious to me.

Back to Dolcett issue. Of course he is obsessed with the ultimate sacrfice. His stories without exception move towards that inevitable end. I, on the other hand, have no compulsion to tick that square in every story. My main concern is about internal consistency of the universe I'm trying to build. Since life is so cheap in this setting, the characters must be witnessing a lot of deaths in their daily lives. When I include a death reference in a story, my purpose is to acknowledge that fact.


PS - The mention of the phrase "happy violence" reminded me a scene from the recent movie Kingsman. There is a scene where the heads of the villain's henchmen and supporters explode with a "happy" musical sequence. (I recommend that movie, btw. It is silly double-o-seven-style fun, and Colin Firth kicks ass)


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 4:48 pm 
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Erenisch wrote:
Well, in my comics only the red shirts die. Cagri has the luxury of killing off his characters because he mostly does one shots, but I invest a lot of time to develop my characters. They are precious to me.

Back to Dolcett issue. Of course he is obsessed with the ultimate sacrfice. His stories without exception move towards that inevitable end. I, on the other hand, have no compulsion to tick that square in every story. My main concern is about internal consistency of the universe I'm trying to build. Since life is so cheap in this setting, the characters must be witnessing a lot of deaths in their daily lives. When I include a death reference in a story, my purpose is to acknowledge that fact.


PS - The mention of the phrase "happy violence" reminded me a scene from the recent movie Kingsman. There is a scene where the heads of the villain's henchmen and supporters explode with a "happy" musical sequence. (I recommend that movie, btw. It is silly double-o-seven-style fun, and Colin Firth kicks ass)

I watched it the other day, I've never seen a more creative film or indeed that particular sequence, and it could have been the best scene in the movie if it wasn't for the royal anal scene

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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 6:09 pm 
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I loved Kingsman. Colin Firth's visit to the Church is a movie highlight for 2015. Relentlessly and unapologetically nonsensical violence and huge fun because of it.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 6:44 pm 
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I'm a Bond fan, but I have to say that the wisecracking-while-shooting-people thing may have started with the early Bond films. The books are actually rather grim about the whole business of taking out the trash for the good of the nation. I think it was probably a smart commercial decision to lighten up Bond's character for the screen, but many imitators have overplayed this element to the point of absurdity.

Haven't seen Kingsman yet but here it's great fun and I'll probably enjoy it with whatever mixed feelings. I suppose if violence is actually played as comedy I find it less off-putting. I've certainly gotten a laugh or two from Quentin Tarentino's pictures, but the violence is so broadly played it approaches old WB cartoons.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 7:08 pm 
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And again, as for Dolcett, clearly he connects with a lot of people. When I worked for the company that distributed his work in the U.S. he was our biggest seller in the hard BDSM genre. Some of this was certainly do to the extreme nature of his vision, but I wouldn't underestimate the appeal of his ability to draw hot women. Dolcett girls are basically derived from Playboy models (his admitted source of inspiration) and I used to appreciate their appeal in his comics until things took a fatal turn.

One certainly could view his scenarios as representing some kind of ultimate surrender (although the dialog in them is often so out of character with the action I, unlike E., don't think he was all that serious about making a statement of any kind).

For example, in one strip we distributed a girl awaiting execution asks to see a priest and a guy shows up in her cell wearing a San Diego Padres T-shirt and wanting a BJ. Dark and rather silly humor to be sure, but humor nonetheless. I always wanted to meet him just to ask about that kind of thing, but he was understandably secretive and only did business by mail.

I am reminded of something Cagri said in a T.I. interview I've appropriated for my own use from time to time. Asked if the comics he drew reflected a hatred of women, he replied that this was like asking Anthony Hopkins if he really eats people. I suspect Dolcett may have had a similar approach. Like most mature people (of whom we sometimes seem to have a shortage in this country), he definitely understood the difference between fantasy and reality. We may not think of Dolcett as a universe builder, but he definitely had some alternate world in his head where conventional ideas of normality had no real estate.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 7:40 pm 
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Colin Firth wisely leaves off the cracking wise for cracking skulls. The movie makes the action so "comic book" that you will have no issue of real world violence. It is more Napoleon Solo or Derek Flint than Jason Bouirne

There was a lightening of the Bond character in the movies but I would wonder at the extent of it. Connery's iteration was a smug, arrogant, snobbish beast with occasional sadistic tendencies and a real sexist issue. Moore's version was all about the making this character so OTT that you cannot take it seriously, making him crack wise in the most inappropriate moments then surprise you by being sensitive on one or two issues as a nod to a remnant of humanity. Dalton and Craig both portray him as a psychological screw up who can only operate in a world of violence (this is the real Bond of Fleming's works) whereas Brosnan managed to marry Moore's "joke for every occasion" with Connery's sadistic psychosis


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:14 am 
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Absolutely agree about which actor was the most "authentic" Bond. Connery more or less took over the character and remade him with a lot of help from the producers into a rather appealing sort of beast. I suppose his will always be the definitive Bond merely by virtue of holding the franchise first and longest.

However, Craig is pretty much the embodiment of the war-rattled Bond we meet in Casino Royale. He's a grim piece of work who pretty much ends up taking the job because the only thing he's demonstrated any real skill at is killing people (in a rather typical class-reference, the ever-snobbish Fleming characterized Bond's educational history as having attended the legendary military academy at Sandhurst "where he excelled only in athletics."

In this way, Casino Royale shares some DNA with the far superior work of John le Carre. Carre's heroes are generally flawed, troubled men caught up in a game they can't win, lose, quit or even understand. The Bond who narrowly survives the novel is exactly the kind of deadly, aimless drifter with no past, no future, no attachments and no prospects who someone as smart as George Smiley would have snapped up in a heartbeat to do the crown's dirty work. Unmoored, unprincipled and indifferent to his own fate, no one would pay it much notice if something went wrong and he never returned from a mission.

I know this is heresy to some, but I really like Craig's Bond better than any of them. Connery is always fun to watch, but do you ever believe he's in any real danger? Do you think for a minute the outcome will be anything other than the bad guy dead and Bond getting the girl? It's hard to worry much about a guy like that.

Craig, on the other hand, brings a sort of pathos to the role the does make me worry what happens to him and to those for whom he attempts to care. Capable as he is, he still seems just this side of desperate half the time. The hot part of The Cold War was largely fought by this type of person and if you read the history of that era, or for that matter catch the excellent U.S. TV series The Americans, you get a sense of what it took to be effective in that kind of combat. It requires trusting no one, including your colleagues and superiors, and knowing that at any moment you could vanish from the face of the earth without anyone even acknowledging that you ever existed.

So far, only Craig has been able to bring the franchise the main thing it lacked as a thriller series - suspense.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 6:11 am 
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Erenisch wrote:
I did similar stuff myself a few times before, in Slavecop, in Slave Fair 2, in BG6, etc... but I was very very careful to keep it off-camera and/or leave room for speculation. If I weren't concerned about banks giving the company hard time, there would be more of those controversial situations in my comics. Again, sn**f is not actually a big fetish of mine, but I don't like constraints on my creativity. The SF series and the SiT series would be considerably darker if I were completely free to do what I wantd.


So the Birthday Gift storyline is the soft, cuddly friendly part of the E.C.U? I hope that knowledge makes Anna, Cathy, Maria and the rest feel so much better about what happened to them. :D

Anna; I was kidnapped by gangsters, forced to watch as my family were slaughtered, escaped, fled the country was tortured by some lame-ass psycho called Steve for a prolonged period of time before escaping and inflicting a hideous revenge, Then whe I kidnapped and oversaw the sexual torture of a rich bitch brat, I was recaptured by my original captor and reduced to the level of abject slave that I had spent years trying to escape.

Jamie: You were lucky! At least you were never at a Slavefair, attempting to save a sister. Nor were you ever invited to join a cult led by an overgrown toad
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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 6:20 am 
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This would have been too much of a non sequitur to attach to the above post hence the double post


ernestgreene wrote:
However, Craig is pretty much the embodiment of the war-rattled Bond we meet in Casino Royale. He's a grim piece of work who pretty much ends up taking the job because the only thing he's demonstrated any real skill at is killing people (in a rather typical class-reference, the ever-snobbish Fleming characterized Bond's educational history as having attended the legendary military academy at Sandhurst "where he excelled only in athletics."


I agree with you about Craig as Bond,

I love how Fleming can so sniffily dismiss Bond's level of education but then have him be offended that he didn't pick up on red wine with fish. It is a great product of Fleming (and to some extent MI6's) outlook at the time that such a faux pas should be how to spot a terrorist masquerading as an MI6 officer.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:38 pm 
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I don't know if anyone else caught the interesting BBC series on Fleming called "The Man Who Would Be Bond," but it explains a great deal about how Fleming's fictional creation was inspired.

Fleming himself was always rather vague in interviews when asked about his own wartime service with British naval intelligence, but as it turns out, there wasn't much for him to be vague about other than the lack of it. He'd gotten a commission as a reserve officer by way of family connections and though he did volunteer repeatedly for field duty he was generally regarded as lacking the right stuff for operations and spent most of his service behind a desk in London. His action proposals left his superiors unimpressed, though he did work for a time on Goldeneye, basically a straight spying operation monitoring relations between nominally-neutral but fascist-leaning Spain and Nazi Germany. After D-Day Fleming finally got some operational experience with the 30 Assault Unit, which he typically wasted by sending commandos scrambling ahead of the main allied forces in search of Nazi weapons technology. The 30 A.U. did manage to scoop up a few low-ranking personnel from von Braun's rocket team, but overall Fleming's superiors considered him a colorful story-teller and something of a dreamer, traits far more useful in a novelist than a spy.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 12:10 am 
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just to throw my 2 cents in re: dolcett type story lines.

My favorite comic is Slave Fair 2, because of the dehumanization and objectification of the women. My favorite panel is at the end, when Anita is used as a final "highlight" to the day. But I also appreciate how any deaths are done off camera, but very deliberately and 'off hand'.

Please include more of those in any future slave fairs or SITs.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 4:15 am 
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ernestgreene wrote:
His action proposals left his superiors unimpressed, though he did work for a time on Goldeneye, basically a straight spying operation monitoring relations between nominally-neutral but fascist-leaning Spain and Nazi Germany.. . but overall Fleming's superiors considered him a colorful story-teller and something of a dreamer, traits far more useful in a novelist than a spy.


This reminds me of my my favourite Fleming story and it explains a lot about both him and Bond.

The famous card game that is the centre-piece of Casino Royale was actually a dose of therapy. In one of his more fantastical operational ideas, he suggested he should engage a known Nazi agent in a friendly game of cards and once the Agent has lost all his money, offer the support of the British Secret Service and turn the guy into a double agent. So far so similar, right? Fleming however was a more enthusiastic card player than a talented one and HE got cleaned out by the Nazi. It would have been amusing to listen in to the post operation briefing over that one. Obviously, Bond must not ultimately make his creator's mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 2:18 pm 
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I'd always suspected that was a bit of wish-fulfillment. Fleming had an unfortunate to overestimate his own abilities at many things, a fact apparent to his superiors at naval intelligence, which is why they kept him safely tucked away in his London office and politely shelved his various outrageous schemes, of which he apparently generated a virtually endless supply. His whole early career could politely be described as underwhelming.

Then he started writing and discovered there was actually something in the world he could do reasonably well, for which we're grateful and so is the M.O.D.


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 Post subject: Re: A bunch of softies.
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 6:28 pm 
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ernestgreene wrote:
Fleming had an unfortunate to overestimate his own abilities at many things,

Like smoking like a chimney and drinking like a fish.

Bond, as a fictional character, could live like that just fine but Ian just got heart disease...

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